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Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#1
This is a topic dear to my heart... the 'feel' of flying a ship/plane/or anything.

In some games you feel totally connected to the ship you are flying. It has weight, intertia and turning takes work. These things provide immersion and are the difference between asteroids in 3D and something 'real' feeling.

Watching the videos as this game has developed I had been a bit worried about this aspect, because it really never looked quite right. and unfortunately, now that I've managed to get it running I have to say it feels wrong to play. The 3rd person perspective may be a big part of this, but there is something lacking and I'm not entirely sure I am explaining myself properly.

I'm really interested in hearing if this is simply a matter of being a proptotype and the physics is 'placeholder' or if this is the intended feel for the game? If it's the intended feel... then my 2 cents is that it might need further thought. I suspect most space sim players out there are a bit like me and want to feel like they're flying the thing!

I hope this is constructive. The effort put in so far is astronomical, the menu systems are functional and easy to grasp and the concept is fantastic. The game is really looking good and I hope it sits up there on my play list alongside other old time favourites like Tie Fighter and I-War.
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Re: Ship 'Feel'

#2
Hey Gomisan,

It definitely would help if you could say which games you like where the "feel" is right to you? I agree it's a huge part of the experience. As for me, I personally tend to like the feel of Freelancer, so the flight feel of LT is somewhat modeled after it, although I do add a good bit more inertia, which I think makes it more interesting overall.

Also, you are having serious difficulty running the game - are you sure that some of it wasn't the low fps?

I am totally open to suggestions on how to improve it, but it would be nice if you could at least provide reference material for which games you like in terms of the feel :)

Also, fighters are intentionally nimble and maneuverable. As your work up to larger ships, you will definitely begin to feel the inertia in a much bigger way.
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: Ship 'Feel'

#3
I think I'm going to be pulling out a few old favouritesjust to get my feet wet again in the genre.

I'll throw a few on my PC of the next week or so and do a series of 'reviews'. That should be an interesting exercise in itself.
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Re: Ship 'Feel'

#5
Which discussion? You have not yet said anything about what "feels wrong" actually means or what would "feel right" to you.
What kind of change or controls are you asking for?
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Ship 'Feel'

#6
I thought my alluding to games such as I-War and Tie Figher was enough to demonstrate the difference in feel.

But here's some starters.

Mouse for steering is awful! Where I point my nose should be a function of WASD, Roll controls are Ok as they are, but thrust should be adjusted with +/- or something, maybe with some presets. and more preferable would be a Joystick with throtle control.

When I stop firing thrusters, teh ship should continue at the speed it's at.. instead they seem to coem to a halt like I'm flying in soup.

Except it's not soup becase the ship turns with the mouse like it's in a FPS. Wildly flinging itself around as the mouse moves.

SO thats a start.... a combination of control issues and physics that seem unrealistic are making this a terrible experince to fly.

A lot of this is subjective. I understand that. Which is why diferent control modes are a common offering in any sort of flight simulator. I also know that the controls are liekly to get more attention as the game development progresses. It's the 'feel' of the ship though which needs sorting out early on, because if it doesnt feel like you're flying a spaceship, then it doesnt matter what control mechanism is used, the game just wont be worth playing.

Now.. I know I have to back this stuff up, but I work full time and have a life outside of video games. But I WILL add some reviews/critiques of other space sim games as I get time. I'll try and address out of the box control setups with both keyboard, keyboard/mouse and joystick wherever possible. I'll also investigate what feels good vs. what is realistic. SOme games the realism just makes it too hard to play, so 'feel' is often a better measure.
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Re: Ship 'Feel'

#7
The one thing I notice for certain is how sensitive the ship steering is to the mouse movements. It even seems way more pronounced immediately after undocking. Every time I need to center the mouse with extreme precision or I end up flying off in some random direction.
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#9
Oh, and here is a bit (because there were actually a few more bits than this) of my feedback on the pre-pre-prototype:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


When flying something big like a destroyer, fighting becomes very hard because the ship is not very maneuverable and your firing cone is limited to what you can see in front of you.
  • The camera / mouselook should not be locked to the front view.
  • In the game that's playing in my mind I "look to the left" (like 90°) and all turrets use their own turning speed to align to this view. The ship would just take it's time to come around to that heading.
  • Another benefit is that the "scroll speed" at which mouse-off-centerness moves the view around can be a setting in the game options. Some players will like it faster because they have FPS kid reflexes, but us old dodderers can slow it down to get more accurate controls.
    The "view movement" would always have the same speed - regardless of the ship.
    Bonus points for consistency.
    Maneuverable ships just align to that view much more quickly.
  • The "Free Mouse" hotkey can keep it's current function, too, and it would be very useful when flying any size of ship - because it allows lateral movement at full speed.
    Hold down the key and the ship continues on it's present course while you look some other way - without the ship following suit.
  • Especially in first-person mode (because then you don't see the ship's body), a UI element is required.
    A "your ship is flying this way" HUD symbol that moves across the screen and - like everything else - is stuck at the edge when it's outside the screen area.

    This would also double as your "bore sight" crosshairs.
    If you implement the fixed-forward lasers (not turrets) that many are asking for, this would be where they are shooting. To hit something you have to move these crosshairs over the target lead indicator.
  • While the basic premise is the same (aim/view independent of ship orientation), there are 2 camps for "right" mouse-movement.
    • Direct control as in your average FPS. You look 90° to the left with one finite mouse flick and the view stays like that until you move the mouse again.
      That's what I prefer because I don't have to "fight" the constant movement of the aim point.
      And let's face it: any dummy can use straight shooter controls.
      It also makes optimal use of guns with high turning speed because you can achieve radical changes in view direction with a mouse flick. You do not have to "wait" for the aim to move there as with...
    • Freelancer style as you would call it where the scroll speed of the view is determined by the distance between pointer and middle of the screen.
      It's true that it reduces the need for mouse movements but you constantly have to juggle target movement, aim movement, and aim movement change to get the ship / aim to go precisely where you want it.
      I know you like it and I don't claim that it doesn't work. It's just a lot more complex than "dumb" shooter controls. In all the space games that used it, I never got used to it. It's not intuitive for me.
In something highly mobile like the beginner ship, it would not feel like "something new" because the ship is so agile it can keep up with the control input. (on default settings)
Once the player has played long enough to upgrade to a bigger ship, the hurdle of "learning new controls" is trivial because it's the same thing he was using all along.

If you ever implement turrets with limited firing arcs, that could be visualised by marking the relevant "weapon circles" on the bottom left. Can not bear at the angle you are looking at. Turn your ship, dummy! Simple.

I know it's not a "small change" but I think that it's an important one - because it is one control scheme that is equally usable with ships of every size and type.
Not ideal in first-person mode because then you don't see the movement of the ship's body. That would require a "your ship is flying this way" HUD symbol that moves across the screen and - like everything else - is stuck at the edge when it's outside the screen area.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#11
I understand, flight model is something that is near and dear to everyone's heart, and, frankly, it's impossible to please everyone in this area unless you provide multiple options for flight control style. Which I am totally open to :)

As for me, you probably already know that I am completely in love with Freelancer, and tend to love the Freelancer flight control,which I think I achieved with LTP. Just let me know what you would prefer and I can try to work it in as an option :)

Also, beware, gamepad and joystick support is still really shoddy - I mean, it works, but...the axes aren't configurable yet. Which seriously limits your ability to play the way you want to :/
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#13
Gazz wrote:
JoshParnell wrote:Just let me know what you would prefer and I can try to work it in as an option :)
I'll see if I can overcome my usual shyness and tell you want I want. At least this once!
We really do need to work on that skill with you, Gazz. I need mods with a strong voice. Come now. Don't be timid.

:D

[Buncha comedians here - Gazz]
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#14
Added another point to the previous post so it doesn't get scattered all over.



While the basic premise is the same (aim/view independent of ship orientation), there are 2 camps for "right" mouse-movement.
  • Direct control as in your average FPS. You look 90° to the left with one finite mouse flick and the view stays like that until you move the mouse again.
    That's what I prefer because I don't have to "fight" the constant movement of the aim point.
    And let's face it: any dummy can use straight shooter controls.
    It also makes optimal use of guns with high turning speed because you can achieve radical changes in view direction with a mouse flick. You do not have to "wait" for the aim to move there as with...
  • Freelancer style as you would call it where the scroll speed of the view is determined by the distance between pointer and middle of the screen.
    It's true that it reduces the need for mouse movements but you constantly have to juggle target movement, aim movement, and aim movement change to get the ship / aim to go precisely where you want it.
    I know you like it and I don't claim that it doesn't work. It's just a lot more complex than "dumb" shooter controls. In all the space games that used it, I never got used to it. It's not intuitive for me.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Flight Model / Control Feels Wrong

#15
But these two camps are so easily unified by one or two lines of code that there's really not any excuse to exclude one or the other :)

It's like myTorque += someFancyFunction(mouse->GetPosition()) vs. myTorque += someFancyFunction(mouse->GetPositionDelta())...

Let's just include both!
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford

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