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Re: The End

#2
jd101 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:26 pm
Thanks for the update, its a pity it didn't work out. When will you be issuing refunds to backers?
Considering the fact that he said he has exhausted his own personal funds, I think you may have a bit of a wait ahead of you, especially for $200,000. If you'd like, you can PM me and I'll discuss it with you.
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Re: The End

#3
jd101 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:26 pm
Thanks for the update, its a pity it didn't work out. When will you be issuing refunds to backers?
Really, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along. :roll:
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Post-End Kickstarter Discussion

#4
charnode wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:29 pm
jd101 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:26 pm
Thanks for the update, its a pity it didn't work out. When will you be issuing refunds to backers?
Really, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along. :roll:
I assumed he was joking.
It's such an out there suggestion, it just doesn't really make sense to be serious.
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: The End

#5
charnode wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:29 pm
jd101 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:26 pm
Thanks for the update, its a pity it didn't work out. When will you be issuing refunds to backers?
Really, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along. :roll:
"Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."

He made copies of the game his reward tiers, if he can't provide those rewards he has to refund the backers.

He can't just take people's money and run he has legal and moral commitments to fullfill. I think people have been very patient given he's 4 years over schedule as it is.
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Re: The End

#6
jd101 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:40 am
charnode wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:29 pm
jd101 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:26 pm
Thanks for the update, its a pity it didn't work out. When will you be issuing refunds to backers?
Really, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along. :roll:
"Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."

He made copies of the game his reward tiers, if he can't provide those rewards he has to refund the backers.

He can't just take people's money and run he has legal and moral commitments to fullfill. I think people have been very patient given he's 4 years over schedule as it is.
Except that wasnt in the clauses when LT was funded.

Only a "reasonable effort" clause, and we are long past that
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Re: The End

#7
Black--Snow wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:54 am
charnode wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:29 pm
jd101 wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:26 pm
Thanks for the update, its a pity it didn't work out. When will you be issuing refunds to backers?
Really, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along. :roll:
I assumed he was joking.
It's such an out there suggestion, it just doesn't really make sense to be serious.
It's not unreasonable its one of the safeguards in Kickstarter. for example if the code he has developed has any value then sell it for whatever he can get and use that to partially refund people as much as he can. along with any equipment he used to make the game, and any other assets etc and just refund people as much as he can, that's the decent thing to do.

Legally he's obliged to offer full refunds. to any backer who claimed a reward.
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Re: The End

#8
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:43 am
jd101 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:40 am
charnode wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:29 pm


Really, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along. :roll:
"Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."

He made copies of the game his reward tiers, if he can't provide those rewards he has to refund the backers.

He can't just take people's money and run he has legal and moral commitments to fullfill. I think people have been very patient given he's 4 years over schedule as it is.
Except that wasnt in the clauses when LT was funded.

Only a "reasonable effort" clause, and we are long past that
Actually no the T&Cs pre 2014 were;

"Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
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Re: The End

#9
jd101 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:49 am
Actually no the T&Cs pre 2014 were;

"Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
Umm, OK and how exactly is he supposed to do that given that he's used the money over the past 6 years to fund development of a failed project?

Think you need to manage your expectations a bit.

There's no game - and no refund. Sad, but that's life... you take a risk with Kickstarter... sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't.
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Re: The End

#10
Refunds?

You actually expect a refund on a project that has no money, and has done pretty much everything it can to be transparent.

Okay, let me stop laughing and actually tackle this from a more 'serious' standpoint since apparently the idea that "No money" means "I can invest with absolutely no risk" for those entitled plebians.

First, there's the fact that in order to actually get any sort of refund, you'll have to file a lawsuit. Now since Kickstarter absolves themselves of all sorts of responsibility for completionist of the project, it means you'll have the file the lawsuit on your own. Yes, US civil laws allow a lawsuit to be filed for as little as $20, but that doesn't take into court costs and/or lawyer costs if you're not representing yourself. Of course you can always file a class-action lawsuit, but that is under the pretense that the entire 'class' is in on the lawsuit--considering how accommodating 99% of the backers are, this would be a hard sell, so let's ignore that option as not feasible.

I'm also going to assume you're representing yourself because if you're not, you're already spending quite a bit on lawyers fees which means anything less than a large backing would already be washed away.

Second, let's say regardless of which way you go (lawyer or self-representation), you still have to convince a judge (or jury) that the refund is not just valid, but can feasibly be repaid. While Kickstarter does have clear-cut terms, there are far too many precedents where Judges have been lenient, or have thrown out cases in general -- especially when the defendant is clearly able to show that 1) He meant no harm, 2) No fraud was committed, or 3) Isn't able to easily pay (under the whole undue financial burden clauses that most judges use).

But for a moment, let's say you've not only backed at a large enough amount that you'll get money back, but you've also convinced a judge to rule in your favor, there's still one more piece;

And that is the fact the game was developed under a business. Not Josh Parnell personally, but a business. Therefore, he can easily (even well after the lawsuit is filed) say he's filing for bankruptcy and the case will be thrown out for the most part, and if it doesn't, it means no financial claim can be made against the business, except for maybe business assets (but not IP, as that gets into trademark law and the USPTO explicitly defines patents as not technically business assets at this level).

Can you still win though? Sure. If you really feel so wronged, so personally attacked by the lack of a product or your money back, you can pursue this, but be aware that this would by no means be short, and the cards are *heavily* stacked against you in recouping anything.

This doesn't even mention the fact that if he really wanted to, the defendant can easily counter-file by simply going with the idea that "Kickstarter is not a guarantee". Without even involving KS, there are far more arguments for "Your pledge is not a guarantee" and most judges will rule in that favor regardless of the terms. The terms KS puts up on their website is to protect them, not either party involved. This is shown NUMEROUS times by simply searching "Refunds from Kickstarter" or similar.

Of course, this is also why some devs cave and just issue refunds because they no longer have the time or energy to deal with it.

The refund question *is* still valid though. This forum, while associated with the game, is not really an associated method for the kickstarter. As such, reaching out on the forums only showcases being petty. If you *really* are serious about getting a refund instead of being an asshat, contact him via Kickstarter and the Kickstarter methods rather than the forum community. You'll get further there. Of course, you'd get even further by nice about it. Here, you could get a ban by a rogue mod just for the hell of it and since this isn't an official forum represented by the backing pledge, there is no reason why someone should unban (not saying it'll happen, just saying this is not an 'official' channel for requesting such actions regarding Kickstarter -- hell, even an associated email to KS would be more official than this forum).

But then again, maybe you've had luck before on getting refunds from small indie developers that have shown good intention and are broke.

(I am not a lawyer, but don't let that deter you. I've been working in the courts system for 10+ years and these are my observations)
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Re: The End

#12
DWMagus wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:32 pm
Refunds?

You actually expect a refund on a project that has no money, and has done pretty much everything it can to be transparent.

Okay, let me stop laughing and actually tackle this from a more 'serious' standpoint since apparently the idea that "No money" means "I can invest with absolutely no risk" for those entitled plebians.

First, there's the fact that in order to actually get any sort of refund, you'll have to file a lawsuit. Now since Kickstarter absolves themselves of all sorts of responsibility for completionist of the project, it means you'll have the file the lawsuit on your own. Yes, US civil laws allow a lawsuit to be filed for as little as $20, but that doesn't take into court costs and/or lawyer costs if you're not representing yourself. Of course you can always file a class-action lawsuit, but that is under the pretense that the entire 'class' is in on the lawsuit--considering how accommodating 99% of the backers are, this would be a hard sell, so let's ignore that option as not feasible.

I'm also going to assume you're representing yourself because if you're not, you're already spending quite a bit on lawyers fees which means anything less than a large backing would already be washed away.

Second, let's say regardless of which way you go (lawyer or self-representation), you still have to convince a judge (or jury) that the refund is not just valid, but can feasibly be repaid. While Kickstarter does have clear-cut terms, there are far too many precedents where Judges have been lenient, or have thrown out cases in general -- especially when the defendant is clearly able to show that 1) He meant no harm, 2) No fraud was committed, or 3) Isn't able to easily pay (under the whole undue financial burden clauses that most judges use).

But for a moment, let's say you've not only backed at a large enough amount that you'll get money back, but you've also convinced a judge to rule in your favor, there's still one more piece;

And that is the fact the game was developed under a business. Not Josh Parnell personally, but a business. Therefore, he can easily (even well after the lawsuit is filed) say he's filing for bankruptcy and the case will be thrown out for the most part, and if it doesn't, it means no financial claim can be made against the business, except for maybe business assets (but not IP, as that gets into trademark law and the USPTO explicitly defines patents as not technically business assets at this level).

Can you still win though? Sure. If you really feel so wronged, so personally attacked by the lack of a product or your money back, you can pursue this, but be aware that this would by no means be short, and the cards are *heavily* stacked against you in recouping anything.

This doesn't even mention the fact that if he really wanted to, the defendant can easily counter-file by simply going with the idea that "Kickstarter is not a guarantee". Without even involving KS, there are far more arguments for "Your pledge is not a guarantee" and most judges will rule in that favor regardless of the terms. The terms KS puts up on their website is to protect them, not either party involved. This is shown NUMEROUS times by simply searching "Refunds from Kickstarter" or similar.

Of course, this is also why some devs cave and just issue refunds because they no longer have the time or energy to deal with it.

The refund question *is* still valid though. This forum, while associated with the game, is not really an associated method for the kickstarter. As such, reaching out on the forums only showcases being petty. If you *really* are serious about getting a refund instead of being an asshat, contact him via Kickstarter and the Kickstarter methods rather than the forum community. You'll get further there. Of course, you'd get even further by nice about it. Here, you could get a ban by a rogue mod just for the hell of it and since this isn't an official forum represented by the backing pledge, there is no reason why someone should unban (not saying it'll happen, just saying this is not an 'official' channel for requesting such actions regarding Kickstarter -- hell, even an associated email to KS would be more official than this forum).

But then again, maybe you've had luck before on getting refunds from small indie developers that have shown good intention and are broke.

(I am not a lawyer, but don't let that deter you. I've been working in the courts system for 10+ years and these are my observations)
Who mentioned suing anyone? You americans are such litigious people and quite toxic not sure you need to start attacking people just because they ask a question. Also you automatically assume everyone is american and that american law will apply, which is unconsciously bigoted at best.

Not being American I was polite and asked a question before beginning any formal complaint process through kickstarter etc.

A company will have assets that can be sold to reimburse backers as much as they can be. There will be books to log how the money was spent and due dilligence to account that it was all spent correctly on the project.

Also not to dispute your knowledge of US law but I took your advice and googled it you might be interested in this top result.
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/failed-kickst ... se-1505864
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Re: The End

#13
From the legal/corporate side of it there's no refund. Assuming Josh did the bare minimum to protect himself, he'd have 'spun up' a registered company/corporation to deal with LT and hold the money. If that company goes broke through poor trading conditions then it vanishes into bankruptcy. At the point of bankruptcy point anybody owed money by the company ("creditors") such as backers who are due a refund would be allocated a proportional share of the company's remaining assets. That is, if the company owes people a total of $5000 (in refunds or whatever) but doesn't have enough to pay everyone, then someone who was owed $500 gets 1/10th of "whatever the company does have".

If those assets are zero then even if you can convince a lawyer that you deserve a 99% share, you've still got zip. I own a small business which is a registered corporation. Admittedly, I'm in the UK not US, so my knowledge of laws may be slightly off, but I think that the US bankruptcy has even fewer creditor protections than the UK version has. The only time that debts from the corporation specifically come back upon the owners' own pockets (IE: The company owners have to pay debts from their own money) is in cases of fraud or extreme (unlawful) mismanagement. When I say mismanagement I mean like transferring thousands of dollars of company money to your own personal bank account under the guise of buying some paperclips. Just "not being able to get a product to market before running out of funds" doesn't count - this happens all of the time in business.

No Kickstarter terms of service are going to get anybody any refunds because "Limit Theory Enterprises" (or whatever the company might have been called) has no money to pay out. If Kickstarter or the backers were to try and sue for the refunds, Josh would just be forced to undergo formal bankruptcy proceedings rather than (as I presume) quietly winding the company down. There'd be no point anybody suing since the end result would be the exact same (nobody gets any money), except everyone would have had to spend lots of time, and lots of $$$ on legal fees with nothing to show for it. Suing would be a terrible idea and wouldn't benefit anybody.

The Kickstarter ToS are there so that fraudulent KS projects/corporations can't run off with people's money. In that case, where they money "still exists", people could sue and could have a chance of getting their refund. If a company takes the money from a KS, spends it working towards the project but fails, KS know fully that nobody's getting their money back. Their ToS aren't there for those situations because corporate law would make them unenforceable.

I think everyone needs to get any notion of a refund right out of their minds, right now.

PS: I say this as a $250 LT backer.
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Re: The End

#14
jd101 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:13 pm
Also not to dispute your knowledge of US law but I took your advice and googled it you might be interested in this top result.
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/failed-kickst ... se-1505864
Sooo... a couple of proven fraudsters and obvious disregard to backers is comparable to a case where the dev worked for six years with regular updates and lots of transparency on what he spent the money?
bahaha.
jd101 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:13 pm
Also you automatically assume everyone is american and that american law will apply, which is unconsciously bigoted at best
Instead of being consciously bigoted and attacking every single american?
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Re: The End

#15
jd101 wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:13 pm
Who mentioned suing anyone? You americans are such litigious people and quite toxic not sure you need to start attacking people just because they ask a question. Also you automatically assume everyone is american and that american law will apply, which is unconsciously bigoted at best.
Ah, a non-American. Suddenly things make a lot more sense (not sarcastic).

In the US, there is no legal way to recoup costs outside of Suing. There is no legal or court-based mechanism that is established in the United States for the transfer of money when terms and conditions are not met. In any case of breach of contract, regardless of manner, the only way to gain that monetary compensation is by suing. Since the majority of the LT backers were from the US, I took a gamble on place of origin and went with that. That's not meant to be bigoted, just a matter of "We, the US, are severely lacking in any sort of recompense inside or outside the court that doesn't involve suing."
Not being American I was polite and asked a question before beginning any formal complaint process through kickstarter etc.
Fair enough. Since that is the case, I will give you a very sincere answer.

You've been on the forums for less than 24 hours, so let me do a brief bit of fill-in. Josh *rarely* responds and/or reads the forums. This would mean your comment would get lost to almost anyone other than the community, hence the strong response you received from us, instead of Josh. The part about KickStarter, is that they are more-or-less the negotiator of the contract between you (as a Kickstarter backer) and Josh (as his business entity). As such, any method you'll need in order to pursue about refunds on a failed or completed product need to go through whatever is associated with Kickstarter. Ltheory.com unfortunately isn't the signing partner in such a contract (even if the site itself is owned, operated, or executed by the developer). As such, reaching our to Josh there would be your best bet.
A company will have assets that can be sold to reimburse backers as much as they can be. There will be books to log how the money was spent and due dilligence to account that it was all spent correctly on the project.
Yes, this is true. Unfortunately, this is also via the route of 'suing'. Once again, in the US, even to claim assets that a business had (outside of intellectual property -- long story), you have to file a lawsuit in which it boils down to suing. Now, if this is the route that deemed the best method, all his assets would be pooled, given a monetary value, and then that value would be doled out based on the percentage the claimants had backed in the original pledge. Say Josh only had $5000 worth of assets, money, etc left. Say you donated as much as $2000 to the KS (Or for the sake of numbers, 1%). This means that you would be entitled to 1% of the remaining assets, or about $50 in this case.
Also not to dispute your knowledge of US law but I took your advice and googled it you might be interested in this top result.
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/failed-kickst ... se-1505864
I don't think you actually read the article. This one keeps coming up multiple times in the KS circles, as well as the court system. The reason this one went through and not thrown out, was because there was 1) Enough cause to determine that the project creator had deceived their backers and 2) It was also shown that the money didn't go towards the project and mostly on himself.

Re: Money on himself -- When a court rules that someone committed fraud and spent money on themself, the court *does* take into consideration the amount. If they see a creator raised $1m in capital, and bought themself a ferrari, large house, etc, it is seen above and beyond what a standard developer would make. In extensive cases, they will even bring in a market analyst to showcase the standard pay for a developer in an area, as well a remote, tele-commuting. Therefore, if a dev shows that he's within those tolerances, it's not going to be a red flag.

At the same time, (at least in the US) this instance isn't a matter of not bringing something to fruition, this is fraud--which is also a big thing for corporations and/or investment seeking individuals.

Finally, since Josh has shown that he has spent well under the standard wage on himself, as well as the offer to give out the code, one could easily argue that he committed no fraud, and that the deliverable was on-par with what he was capable of. If he happens to provide ALL the code, even the scrapped codebase from back before the dark days, it'll be even harder to prove that he hasn't fulfilled his obligation to his KS backers.

Hope this helps.

Oh yeah, as for suing; (sorry for beating a dead horse), the US has some really stupid laws, that the lawsuit must be filed in the city where the contract was executed. In this case, wherever Josh lives, as the idea behind it is that he would have to break the laws of where the business resides. Since that's in the US, he had to abide by US laws. International law is far more muddy and while I don't have as much experience there, I've definitely seen my fair share of judges annoyed at the equivalent of "someone tossing work onto their desk that isn't within their purview".

(Also thanks to Toreador for pointing out a bit more that I had skimmed over)
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