Disclaimer: This idea comes up in fiction a lot I'm hardily claiming to be original!
Reasons for the idea:
When you have vast amounts of resources in games you can start to feel unchallenged or start to feel all your power and resources don't mean much, considering the game has the idea of no matter how much you explore the more you discover element to it I feel random events are a good way to keep things interesting and fresh.
*Image simply for thread aesthetics purposes*
What's the idea already!:
An empire/s decide they want to conquer and rule on a massive scale! I'm aware that enemy fleets are planned but I think seeing multiple fleets all under one banner is quite a sight. I suppose this is approaching a story but it wouldn't necessary have to beat the player over the head with it what was going on. You would see the empire or race show up late game and it would be tailored enough to be a match for the forces you currently wield.
Random events in games can be some of the best moments especially when you can apply your own meaning to what's really gone on.
I suppose to expand on this you could have two empires battling it out with each other, you could maybe try allying with one and turning on them. Interesting what others thing of the idea.
Apologises if similar has been suggested or thought of. I'm interested to see if anyone else likes the idea of this!
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:43 pm
#2
Re: Galactic Threat!
Wouldn't most factions try to conquer the world, in a way?
While I like the idea of factions coming together under a single banner (i.e. a faction alliance system), I think the problem is what the player can do about it. If by the time this happens you've built a huge fleet, you might stand a chance, but what if you were content just exploring and trading and never bothered to prepare for an onslaught? Would you get exterminated then?
Fiction where one character faces a crawling empire and wins are most often choke-full of plot holes so as to give a chance to the protagonist. There is no plot in LT, however, so no way (no matter how ham-fisted a way) to give the player a chance against overwhelming odds.
While I like the idea of factions coming together under a single banner (i.e. a faction alliance system), I think the problem is what the player can do about it. If by the time this happens you've built a huge fleet, you might stand a chance, but what if you were content just exploring and trading and never bothered to prepare for an onslaught? Would you get exterminated then?
Fiction where one character faces a crawling empire and wins are most often choke-full of plot holes so as to give a chance to the protagonist. There is no plot in LT, however, so no way (no matter how ham-fisted a way) to give the player a chance against overwhelming odds.
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:03 pm
#3
If the player has built up a huge trading conglomerate, the threat could take the form of sabotage, increased piracy, embargoes and such. Conversely, if the player built up an overwhelming military capability, the form of the threat could take the form of an alliance of rival factions or the possibility of coming in contact with an expansionist power of the same or greater means. As an explorer who has built up a fleet to map out the universe as well as locate and exploit resources the threat could come in the form of potentially lethal cybernetic threats whether biological, physical or cognitive.
In essence a significant late game challenge could easily be generated and tailored procedurally. The bigger issue is, of course, time and coding resources. Josh is already committed to an incredibly workload as is. Perhaps something along the lines of this suggestion could be a stretch goal or an add-on. Or it could possibly appear in some future iteration of the game.
Re: Galactic Threat!
Actually, the threat could be procedurally generated based on the PC having achieved a certain critical mass.Atarun wrote:Wouldn't most factions try to conquer the world, in a way?
While I like the idea of factions coming together under a single banner (i.e. a faction alliance system), I think the problem is what the player can do about it. If by the time this happens you've built a huge fleet, you might stand a chance, but what if you were content just exploring and trading and never bothered to prepare for an onslaught? Would you get exterminated then?
Fiction where one character faces a crawling empire and wins are most often choke-full of plot holes so as to give a chance to the protagonist. There is no plot in LT, however, so no way (no matter how ham-fisted a way) to give the player a chance against overwhelming odds.
If the player has built up a huge trading conglomerate, the threat could take the form of sabotage, increased piracy, embargoes and such. Conversely, if the player built up an overwhelming military capability, the form of the threat could take the form of an alliance of rival factions or the possibility of coming in contact with an expansionist power of the same or greater means. As an explorer who has built up a fleet to map out the universe as well as locate and exploit resources the threat could come in the form of potentially lethal cybernetic threats whether biological, physical or cognitive.
In essence a significant late game challenge could easily be generated and tailored procedurally. The bigger issue is, of course, time and coding resources. Josh is already committed to an incredibly workload as is. Perhaps something along the lines of this suggestion could be a stretch goal or an add-on. Or it could possibly appear in some future iteration of the game.
I know not what life is, nor death.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:37 pm
#4
Re: Galactic Threat!
I think you might be missing the point. You keep saying "Late game", but this game is specifically designed to be infinite, ergo, there is no end, therefore there is no way for it to ever BE late game. You can think you have a massive empire, but you've only just scratched the surface.
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:49 pm
#5
Re: Galactic Threat!
Thanks Tom. Agree with pretty much everything you said. You even clarified much of what I meant.
So I think you missed my point, from now on I'll retrain from saying "late game" though.
I just used the term "late game" so people could relate to what I meant more. In other games where you build up massive amounts of stuff it sort of all becomes meaningless (often this happens "late game"). I understand that Limit Theory will be a continuous experience which is very appealing. However just because there's more to see doesn't mean having loads of stuff wouldn't start to make things feel a bit dry.ACH0225 wrote:I think you might be missing the point. You keep saying "Late game", but this game is specifically designed to be infinite, ergo, there is no end, therefore there is no way for it to ever BE late game. You can think you have a massive empire, but you've only just scratched the surface.
So I think you missed my point, from now on I'll retrain from saying "late game" though.
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:16 pm
#6
Re: Galactic Threat!
I assure you, I know what you meant. But the thing is, even if you build up a huge fleet and THINK youve done everything, you only get bored because you think you've done everything. Its a bit of circular logic, you think youve done everything because you have the notion that everything that you can do has been done. That's when most people get bored with open ended games, when in actuallity, you don't need a big fleet to give you something to do. I creative person could think of something to do on their own, without making the dev spend extra time.
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:52 pm
#7
How about presenting it this way: whenever a huge trading conglomerate forms (player-controlled or not), many NPCs are driven to piracy and sabotage, whenever a huge military force builds up (player-controlled or not), many NPCs try to form alliances (possibly with the player), whenever a big explorer shows up... nothing happens in particular, s/he is just taking plenty of risks already roaming through deep space.
Then it's just suggestions for the AI and I find them pretty good.
Re: Galactic Threat!
Can't all of that be just part of the AI? I don't see why factions should react any differently to the player compared to NPCs... It would definitely ruin immersion.Tom wrote:If the player has built up a huge trading conglomerate, the threat could take the form of sabotage, increased piracy, embargoes and such. Conversely, if the player built up an overwhelming military capability, the form of the threat could take the form of an alliance of rival factions or the possibility of coming in contact with an expansionist power of the same or greater means. As an explorer who has built up a fleet to map out the universe as well as locate and exploit resources the threat could come in the form of potentially lethal cybernetic threats whether biological, physical or cognitive.
In essence a significant late game challenge could easily be generated and tailored procedurally. The bigger issue is, of course, time and coding resources. Josh is already committed to an incredibly workload as is. Perhaps something along the lines of this suggestion could be a stretch goal or an add-on. Or it could possibly appear in some future iteration of the game.
How about presenting it this way: whenever a huge trading conglomerate forms (player-controlled or not), many NPCs are driven to piracy and sabotage, whenever a huge military force builds up (player-controlled or not), many NPCs try to form alliances (possibly with the player), whenever a big explorer shows up... nothing happens in particular, s/he is just taking plenty of risks already roaming through deep space.
Then it's just suggestions for the AI and I find them pretty good.
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:04 pm
#8
The viability of such an implementation is, naturally, up to Josh. As far as development time, given that the game is being made by a single person, it is clearly finite. It will be up to Josh to determine how and on what he spends it on. Personally, I am lukewarm on the idea but this is a suggestion section that specifically is for player input, as such, MightyMyth should be free to offer his ideas without being dismissed with thinly-disguised ad hominem arguments.
As a footnote, I suspect that the more suggestions that find traction with supporters and the higher the number of stretch goals that are thus generated and met via the fundraiser the higher the likelihood that Josh will farm out some of the coding work while retaining complete creative and technical control over the project.
Re: Galactic Threat!
I think you are being a little unfair with your criticism. Yes, Limit Theory is an infinite sandbox and thus could, potentially, be played endlessly. That said, if the game lacks variety and surprises, playing it could, in fact, become monotonous and even dull over time. The suggestion in question can be procedurally implemented, merely determine a given value (which could even be random within certain parameters) whether measured in credits, armaments, or space explored and generate an appropriate threat vector. As far as semantics, simply substitute 'critical mass' for the term 'late game' if you find that expression so abhorrent.ACH0225 wrote:I assure you, I know what you meant. But the thing is, even if you build up a huge fleet and THINK youve done everything, you only get bored because you think you've done everything. Its a bit of circular logic, you think youve done everything because you have the notion that everything that you can do has been done. That's when most people get bored with open ended games, when in actuallity, you don't need a big fleet to give you something to do. I creative person could think of something to do on their own, without making the dev spend extra time.
The viability of such an implementation is, naturally, up to Josh. As far as development time, given that the game is being made by a single person, it is clearly finite. It will be up to Josh to determine how and on what he spends it on. Personally, I am lukewarm on the idea but this is a suggestion section that specifically is for player input, as such, MightyMyth should be free to offer his ideas without being dismissed with thinly-disguised ad hominem arguments.
As a footnote, I suspect that the more suggestions that find traction with supporters and the higher the number of stretch goals that are thus generated and met via the fundraiser the higher the likelihood that Josh will farm out some of the coding work while retaining complete creative and technical control over the project.
Last edited by Tom on Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I know not what life is, nor death.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:10 pm
#9
But I still like the idea of cybernetic threat vectors, whether they be biological agents, computer viruses, or hard to contain self-replicating nanites that consume all physical matter they come in contact with (imagine a planet being consumed!). The more you explore, the more likely you are to find such, no?
Re: Galactic Threat!
You know, I like the way you think.Atarun wrote:Can't all of that be just part of the AI? I don't see why factions should react any differently to the player compared to NPCs... It would definitely ruin immersion.Tom wrote:If the player has built up a huge trading conglomerate, the threat could take the form of sabotage, increased piracy, embargoes and such. Conversely, if the player built up an overwhelming military capability, the form of the threat could take the form of an alliance of rival factions or the possibility of coming in contact with an expansionist power of the same or greater means. As an explorer who has built up a fleet to map out the universe as well as locate and exploit resources the threat could come in the form of potentially lethal cybernetic threats whether biological, physical or cognitive.
In essence a significant late game challenge could easily be generated and tailored procedurally. The bigger issue is, of course, time and coding resources. Josh is already committed to an incredibly workload as is. Perhaps something along the lines of this suggestion could be a stretch goal or an add-on. Or it could possibly appear in some future iteration of the game.
How about presenting it this way: whenever a huge trading conglomerate forms (player-controlled or not), many NPCs are driven to piracy and sabotage, whenever a huge military force builds up (player-controlled or not), many NPCs try to form alliances (possibly with the player), whenever a big explorer shows up... nothing happens in particular, s/he is just taking plenty of risks already roaming through deep space.
Then it's just suggestions for the AI and I find them pretty good.
But I still like the idea of cybernetic threat vectors, whether they be biological agents, computer viruses, or hard to contain self-replicating nanites that consume all physical matter they come in contact with (imagine a planet being consumed!). The more you explore, the more likely you are to find such, no?
I know not what life is, nor death.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:16 pm
#10
Re: Galactic Threat!
Indeed. But you could also stumble on that very soon after starting the game. Wouldn't that make exploration a lot more thrilling?Tom wrote: You know, I like the way you think.
But I still like the idea of cybernetic threat vectors, whether they be biological agents, computer viruses, or hard to contain self-replicating nanites that consume all physical matter they come in contact with (imagine a planet being consumed!). The more you explore, the more likely you are to find such, no?
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:55 pm
#11
Re: Galactic Threat!
Scaled threats will ensure the player is at least minimally challenged from the time he starts to the time of his retirement. However it will not make sense to me if everything is scaled to the player. Sure there will be times the player finds himself up against pretty tough odds, sometimes up against overwhelming odds, and at other times the player should have a clear superiority over the other group.
LT is billed as an infinite sandbox, so it does not end. By conjuring up an overwhelming force the player has to face, I think that means the end is in sight. It is also not a rougelike game, so while players can retire prematurely if they make foolish decisions, danger should not be around every corner or every sector.
It is a sandbox. The difficulty, the challenge, the player should be given enough control over the parameters of the universe that he can choose to dominate if he wishes, to retire quietly if that is what he wants, or he can choose to live on the edge, facing death at every encounter.
End of it, I think it comes down to providing options, to let the Player decide how they want their sandbox to be. That to me is my sandbox.
LT is billed as an infinite sandbox, so it does not end. By conjuring up an overwhelming force the player has to face, I think that means the end is in sight. It is also not a rougelike game, so while players can retire prematurely if they make foolish decisions, danger should not be around every corner or every sector.
It is a sandbox. The difficulty, the challenge, the player should be given enough control over the parameters of the universe that he can choose to dominate if he wishes, to retire quietly if that is what he wants, or he can choose to live on the edge, facing death at every encounter.
End of it, I think it comes down to providing options, to let the Player decide how they want their sandbox to be. That to me is my sandbox.
To boldly go where no one has gone before
Post
Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:18 pm
#12
I like the idea of the player creating their own stories, eg: you steal something, it potentially has repercussions later on, etc.
Re: Galactic Threat!
Never said anything about an overwhelming force. However I agree a game mechanic should never make someone feel it's ruined their game.Ringo wrote:Scaled threats will ensure the player is at least minimally challenged from the time he starts to the time of his retirement. However it will not make sense to me if everything is scaled to the player. Sure there will be times the player finds himself up against pretty tough odds, sometimes up against overwhelming odds, and at other times the player should have a clear superiority over the other group.
LT is billed as an infinite sandbox, so it does not end. By conjuring up an overwhelming force the player has to face, I think that means the end is in sight. It is also not a rougelike game, so while players can retire prematurely if they make foolish decisions, danger should not be around every corner or every sector.
It is a sandbox. The difficulty, the challenge, the player should be given enough control over the parameters of the universe that he can choose to dominate if he wishes, to retire quietly if that is what he wants, or he can choose to live on the edge, facing death at every encounter.
End of it, I think it comes down to providing options, to let the Player decide how they want their sandbox to be. That to me is my sandbox.
I like the idea of the player creating their own stories, eg: you steal something, it potentially has repercussions later on, etc.
Post
Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:11 pm
#13
Re: Galactic Threat!
On of the things that I enjoy about Europa Universalis is that the player isn't always constantly becoming bigger and stronger, but goes through cycles of growth and decline. That way it is always interesting for the player; even when they are beaten back they still have the opportunity to grow again.
David -- Proud to be saving the world since 1984
Post
Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:49 pm
#14
Re: Galactic Threat!
Couldn't it happen anytime? You're just a simple trader with a few outposts, and another faction utterly destroys your previous client. Based on the new faction, you may have better or worse opportunities. Maybe they have stricter markets, higher taxes, which would kill your profit and force you to switch clients again. Maybe they have no restrictions, so your trade flourishes.
Or you're a soldier. Against overwhelming odds, you can fight, and most likely die, you could surrender, likely becoming a slave with minimal equipment and a massive debt, or flee, and build up forces to retake your worlds. Theres more to it than just dieing or repelling.
Or you're a soldier. Against overwhelming odds, you can fight, and most likely die, you could surrender, likely becoming a slave with minimal equipment and a massive debt, or flee, and build up forces to retake your worlds. Theres more to it than just dieing or repelling.
Post
Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:20 am
#15
i could see this as an opportunity for a career change. simple trader sets out to gain fair. dose moderately well for himself. near by star system has an empire that sets out and take over the system you happen to trade in the bottom falls out of your profits ruining you...so just turn pirate and start raiding them. then when they get to fearing the new you they offer an option war or privateer hey new weve got something . trader to pirate pirate to privateer or warlord... interesting this is the kind of internal npc reactions that while not directly effected by our actions but would still effect us. thats what i love about this set up. theres no limit to what could be done.
Re: Galactic Threat!
Professor Fenway wrote:Couldn't it happen anytime? You're just a simple trader with a few outposts, and another faction utterly destroys your previous client. Based on the new faction, you may have better or worse opportunities. Maybe they have stricter markets, higher taxes, which would kill your profit and force you to switch clients again. Maybe they have no restrictions, so your trade flourishes.
Or you're a soldier. Against overwhelming odds, you can fight, and most likely die, you could surrender, likely becoming a slave with minimal equipment and a massive debt, or flee, and build up forces to retake your worlds. Theres more to it than just dieing or repelling.
i could see this as an opportunity for a career change. simple trader sets out to gain fair. dose moderately well for himself. near by star system has an empire that sets out and take over the system you happen to trade in the bottom falls out of your profits ruining you...so just turn pirate and start raiding them. then when they get to fearing the new you they offer an option war or privateer hey new weve got something . trader to pirate pirate to privateer or warlord... interesting this is the kind of internal npc reactions that while not directly effected by our actions but would still effect us. thats what i love about this set up. theres no limit to what could be done.
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.