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PC Skill System

#1
I may be jumping the gun a bit but, in my defense, Josh encouraged me. Well, all right, he did not exactly encourage me, but he did say that if it became a recurring suggestion he would more seriously consider utilizing a skill system in Limit Theory (perhaps as a stretch goal?).

I am perfectly aware that Limit Theory utilizes a sandbox format and that there is no traditional narrative arc for the PC to complete. But there is sure to be a fair bit of NPC interaction regardless even if not critical to advancing the plot. Though the specifics of NPC interaction have yet to be presented in detail, I can think of no compelling reason (beyond Josh's already heavy workload :oops: ) to exclude the possibility of bringing the PC's cognitive skills and or technical expertise into play. The skill system need be neither overly sophisticated or cumbersome. Skill values would serve as modifiers. In NPC interaction they would effect things like terms of trade, political negotiations, and the hiring of crew, among other things. In terms of gameplay technical knowledge and expertise could potentially lower the time required for repairs or the ability to decipher and make use of alien technology. And the impact of skills could all be done by a simple check against the difficulty of the task or the attributes of the NPC being dealt with.

All PCs could start with entry level skills with perhaps a couple of bonus skill points to be distributed freely. As for skill advancement, it could be keyed to skill use or possibly advanced via achievements.

I know that I am really excited about the possibility that a skill system might be added to the game. The key, of course, is whether other supporters feel the same way. As such, I would truly welcome feedback from as many backers of Limit Theory as possible whether they like the idea or not.

Thank you, in advance.
I know not what life is, nor death.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
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Re: PC Skill System

#2
I love the idea (but as an RPG-addict, that was probably a given)!

I see two problems, though:
  • Josh's workload, as you mentioned. I don't think anybody would want him to spend too much time on mechanics that are not crucial, and no matter how excited we both are about a skill system, I hope you'll agree that it is not crucial in a procedurally-generated space simulation (whereas I'd argue it totally is in, say, a rogue-like).
  • How do you make a skill tree infinite? I'm not saying it can't be done. In fact, I think it could be just as procedurally generated as the rest of the game. But it's not trivial... and I think a limited skill tree in an unlimited universe could potentially end up a letdown. I know I feel sad when I reach the max level in any RPG, even though the game is by then most often already "finished" (at least the main storyline), so I'm pretty sure I'd feel sad if I learn all skills in LT.
Then, there's the question of how skills are earned. Not really a problem, just a question. For instance, if they're earned based on achievements, it rules out procedurally generated skills (unless achievements are procedurally generated as well... but since achievements are often used to compare with other players, I'm not sure how interesting that would be... maybe titles would be a better name for such a system).
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Re: PC Skill System

#3
Aren't the ships we're going to have be similar to a skill system? As we get bigger and better ships, with bigger (or smaller) and better sensors/weapons/cargo/repairs/translator modules/etc (all of which are already being done procedurally?) we will go up in 'level'?.
For the social aspect (trade, negotiation, etc), it would be how NPCs/Factions see the PC?

Taking mining as an example, if the action for mining is aiming your mining beam at an ore node on the side of an asteroid to break it apart and transport the ore into your hold, then instead of a mining skill that increases you would upgrade to a better mining beam.
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Re: PC Skill System

#4
I think it is ok to have limits on skills in an unlimited universe.
The advancement to the top limit can require exponential experience to make it would take a lifetime in playing to reach it. In d&d 1st edition i never met anyone that actually got to level 20, some did but very rare.

Not everything in the game has to be procedurally generated even if it could be, it does not have to be for some things.


You could introduce psionics for almost magical and force powers but to do that is however a massive amount of work and i don't think it will be in the first release but nice to dream aye? Perhaps a simple skill system as described above could be feasible in the first release, or maybe not i dunno, certainly not a priority feature, a nice to have.
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Re: PC Skill System

#5
Chameleon wrote:Aren't the ships we're going to have be similar to a skill system? As we get bigger and better ships, with bigger (or smaller) and better sensors/weapons/cargo/repairs/translator modules/etc (all of which are already being done procedurally?) we will go up in 'level'?.
For the social aspect (trade, negotiation, etc), it would be how NPCs/Factions see the PC?

Taking mining as an example, if the action for mining is aiming your mining beam at an ore node on the side of an asteroid to break it apart and transport the ore into your hold, then instead of a mining skill that increases you would upgrade to a better mining beam.
Naturally, equipment can and will effect any number of player activities and operations. The idea behind player skills is not merely to make the game 'easier' but to increase customization and the increased immersion that comes from the greater identification with who and what the PC becomes as the game advances.

Incidentally, I was not advocating a skill tree so granular that the PC could focus on specific disciplines like geology, mining engineering, or nano technology. While such a level of sophistication would be wonderful, it would likely need to wait for such a time as when Josh releases the source code or, as he alluded to in another post, makes an OpenLT in Python. At which point, the community around the game could create all sorts of wonderful content an add-ons (including an extensive skill system).

To begin with I envisioned a handful of cognitive skills such as awareness, intuition, perception, reasoning, and judgment, which would act as modifiers on interaction with NPCs; along with two technical tracks, one of knowledge (i.e. theory) and one of practical expertise (i.e. engineering) which would impact upon the PCs ability to identify and incorporate new technologies as well as effect repairs and like activities.

Just to be clear, I am merely exploring the idea if there is support for a skill system within the community. The call as to whether the time and resources for incorporating such a system into the game are available and worthwhile are Josh's alone.
I know not what life is, nor death.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
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Re: PC Skill System

#6
Jason Schupfer wrote:I think it is ok to have limits on skills in an unlimited universe.
The advancement to the top limit can require exponential experience to make it would take a lifetime in playing to reach it. In d&d 1st edition i never met anyone that actually got to level 20, some did but very rare.

Not everything in the game has to be procedurally generated even if it could be, it does not have to be for some things.


You could introduce psionics for almost magical and force powers but to do that is however a massive amount of work and i don't think it will be in the first release but nice to dream aye? Perhaps a simple skill system as described above could be feasible in the first release, or maybe not i dunno, certainly not a priority feature, a nice to have.
Yes, I think we are very much on the same page.

I very much look forward to your implementation of psionics in an OpenLT version of the game. ;)
I know not what life is, nor death.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
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Re: PC Skill System

#7
There's also the skills that the players themselves have and bring to the game. The PC's financial progress will depend on the player's ability to figure out the best trade routes, and influence the markets. Their kill count will depend on their dogfighting skills. And the best thing is: improvements over the course of playing are very likely. ;)
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Re: PC Skill System

#8
Commander McLane wrote:There's also the skills that the players themselves have and bring to the game. The PC's financial progress will depend on the player's ability to figure out the best trade routes, and influence the markets. Their kill count will depend on their dogfighting skills. And the best thing is: improvements over the course of playing are very likely. ;)
Very true, but that is really more reflective of your skill as a player than the growth of a specific character. It is not that you cannot consider your expertise as a player to be representative of your character's advancement but, in truth, the former is primarily derived from decoding the AI and gameplay systems whereas the latter relies on a progression that could potentially be unique in the case of each and every character.

The idea behind the type of skill system I am envisioning is to deepen immersion by emphasizing the role-play element via customization of the in-game character from the beginning to the end of his in-game career.
I know not what life is, nor death.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
Post

Re: PC Skill System

#9
The main argument against a skill system is that it discourages trying out new things.

If for example your "trade skill" is so advanced that you make 100000 cash units per hour on trade, what motivation do you have to switch career path and try out some of the other stuff in the game that will only give you perhaps 100 cash units per hour since you have zero skill?

Due to experience gains and diminishing returns it will also be much more time consuming (generally speaking) to level up a second set of skills compared to the first, and skills later in the same branch you started with would have given you much greater rewards.

A game with a skill system thus either forces you to start from scratch and build your character again in another way, or to buy some kind of "respec" (if possible) that let's your character magically forget everything learned and dump it somewhere else. I like Neither way.


There are exceptions to some of this in some games, for example Eve Online has a skill system that encourages trying out new stuff since beginner skills are so cheap in both time and cash to aquire and learn. The base problem however remains, if you spent a year becomming say the best miner possible you would earn miserable credits/cash trying out anything else.
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Re: PC Skill System

#10
Personally I don't want a skill system
Chameleon wrote:Aren't the ships we're going to have be similar to a skill system? As we get bigger and better ships, with bigger (or smaller) and better sensors/weapons/cargo/repairs/translator modules/etc (all of which are already being done procedurally?) we will go up in 'level'?.
For the social aspect (trade, negotiation, etc), it would be how NPCs/Factions see the PC?

Taking mining as an example, if the action for mining is aiming your mining beam at an ore node on the side of an asteroid to break it apart and transport the ore into your hold, then instead of a mining skill that increases you would upgrade to a better mining beam.
I wouldn't always say bigger is better, for example unless you are in an emergency you probably wouldn't cloak with a dreadnought armed to the teeth, no I think that the dreadnought is so large that cloaking is difficult for it. An obvious one, a starfighter wouldn't be launching huge beam lasers. Sorry in advance if I am completely misreading your comment or your point.

I personally don't like skill systems rather I like progression. You start with a small pod-like ship and end up buying cheap weapons for it . As you get richer and more powerful you can buy more powerful/reliable equipment. For example you start with a turret that overheats easily, eventually you get a fast, powerful turret that can run for a while before overheating.
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Re: PC Skill System

#11
There is also this snippet from the Q&A from Space Game Junkie:
Space Game Junkie wrote:Brian: Speaking of the player, will there be any kind of reputation or role playing system involved? For example, will the game track your kills and give you experience, as well as sour your reputation with whomever you’ve killed most, for example?

Josh: Yes, there will certainly be role playing elements. The game will track kills and other influential actions, as well as your reputation with factions. Your actions can and will influence the way NPCs view you, both at the individual as well at the faction level. On the other hand, there will be no experience or skill system – all skills must be learnt by you, the player, not by your character.
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Re: PC Skill System

#13
Bele wrote:I personally do not see how a skill system would benefit my enjoyment of the game, and if it is put in for any reason I hope it will be optional.
It allows you to substitute some sort of grind for a lack of skill.
Fun? I think not.


I'd rather see the balancing done through ship systems.

If you're not a great shot, install lasers that can auto-correct for the target lead within a few degrees. Fixed lasers might be more effective (if they hit...) but you would be able to play the game either way.
Or hire AI wingmen to do the shooting for you and fly some sort of cargo ship yourself.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: PC Skill System

#14
Gazz wrote:
Bele wrote:I personally do not see how a skill system would benefit my enjoyment of the game, and if it is put in for any reason I hope it will be optional.
It allows you to substitute some sort of grind for a lack of skill.
Fun? I think not.


I'd rather see the balancing done through ship systems.

If you're not a great shot, install lasers that can auto-correct for the target lead within a few degrees. Fixed lasers might be more effective (if they hit...) but you would be able to play the game either way.
Or hire AI wingmen to do the shooting for you and fly some sort of cargo ship yourself.
i like the idea of AI wingmen
maybe add the skill system to them with some sort of decay system, maybe not something the player can directly affect (like adding stats to the AI) but through the type of job they are assigned to.
so if you assign them to dogfights, they get better at fighting, or assign trade there diplomacy gets better. but if they stop fighting/trading/mining, there skills slowly decay.
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Re: PC Skill System

#15
Windridge wrote: i like the idea of AI wingmen
maybe add the skill system to them with some sort of decay system, maybe not something the player can directly affect (like adding stats to the AI) but through the type of job they are assigned to.
so if you assign them to dogfights, they get better at fighting, or assign trade there diplomacy gets better. but if they stop fighting/trading/mining, there skills slowly decay.
Commanding NPC fleets is a confirmed feature for the game, and NPC skills done right could be a nice bonus to that, but that is a discussion for another thread.
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