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Procedurally generated building materials

#1
If I understood it correctly, the ship textures that we'll see in the game are procedurally generated. Therefore, on different playthroughs we will see factions with visibly different ship materials, with distinct colour, reflections... Right?

If that is the case, I think it would be a great idea to take it a bit further and make procedurally generated materials part of the gameplay. Perhaps you had something like this in mind already, Josh, but anyway, to give an example:

When you generate the universe, a whole tier tree of crafting materials (be them minerals, gases, etc) are procedurally generated, with random names, random apperance and random rarity (tied to their importance in the ship/station building requirements). DIfferent factions prefer the use of certain subset of materials and that's reflected on the appearance of their ships. Obviously, they would be using the materials that can be found on their native area and those they can easily trade for.

I'm suggesting this because it would make it possible to severely obscure the information of each material to the players, so they have to figure it out each playthrough, making it an act of discovery and experimentation rather than following guides. For all the PCG Minecraft uses, the magic kind of died for me when I realized the "optimal" way to get a world going. Go for diamonds ASAP, etc. This way you could get rid of that and have the players use their observation skills (looking at the textures of the asteroid mineral chunks, compare with hostile ships, work out what the schematics require) instead of having them look up a guide in Google.

What do you guys think?
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#2
Yes that could be really cool... butttt... I dunno. There's something to be said for the real deal we all know (iron, copper, lead,...).
I am not aware of textures being procedural by the way... but I could be wrong.

I am on the fence. It could be cool if it was done almost perfectly, but I can see it easily diminishing the game... I do get the sweet 'roguelike-need-to-identify' vibe from it. Or the randomly named scrolls that do something else every playthrough.
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#3
I'm suggesting this because it would make it possible to severely obscure the information of each material to the players, so they have to figure it out each playthrough, making it an act of discovery and experimentation rather than following guides. For all the PCG Minecraft uses, the magic kind of died for me when I realized the "optimal" way to get a world going. Go for diamonds ASAP, etc.
Explain that part to me. I wasn't under the impression that Josh intended to make stuff craftable by random discovery of recipes or key item strength on the material used, and the system you describe here seems confusing at best.
From what we know so far, manufacturing seems to be based on (obtainable) blueprints, and seems to be more something for mid- to endgame, as in the beginning you'll probably pick up your stuff from the local shipyard.

Also, I'm not sure whether I'm keen on procedurally generated resource names. They tend to be hard to memorize and/or not very informative as far as the intended use of the stuff goes. I prefer to deal with generically titled goods like "Electronics", "Precious Metals" and "Slaves" instead of Lettersalad Ore and Ndsmrvwls Alloys.
Hardenberg was my name
And Terra was my nation
Deep space is my dwelling place
The stars my destination
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#4
Haivng plaied minecraft (and then used the mod pack Tekkit) for going n somethign like 4 years now i can say i know what you mean about finding the fastest path to 'best' end game and it killing some of the fun for you. for instance some of my best memories were the first 2 weeks after buying the game and the struggle it was to just survuve. and then by week 3 i was familiar with the basics and doing quite well. now im able to do that same level of survival in about 2 and a half hours (theres something seriously wrong if i dont have a house a farm and a diamond pick before the 4 hour mark...)

but even with part of the games excitement dieing with knowing what i have to do to get to end game and finding the short cuts to getting there... I cant imagine what a nightmarish headache it would be to relearn each universes mixed bag of resources each time.
keep it simple keep it fun. things we know like iron tin bronze steel gold ect should be in the game and do what we know it to do. I dont see a problem with having some faction out there call iron balkatite as long as the iron itself is still well iron obviously lol. now having said that theres nothing to stop other less factual ores and resources from being added into the game to give a larger variety to the things available.
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#5
Hardenberg wrote: Also, I'm not sure whether I'm keen on procedurally generated resource names. They tend to be hard to memorize and/or not very informative as far as the intended use of the stuff goes. I prefer to deal with generically titled goods like "Electronics", "Precious Metals" and "Slaves" instead of Lettersalad Ore and Ndsmrvwls Alloys.
The idea is that some things in the game will be procedurally named with a letter repository and some phonotactical rules, or a syllable repository. These processes would probably go more to placenames and NPC names, whereas commodities will probably have more prefabricated names.

But, this being space, I imagine that you are going to find many products or raw materials with foreign names, due to the presence of alien races. So maybe some of the metals or compounds could have generated names while manufactured products (like electronics and precious metals) could have more generic and recognizable names.

But since you mention slaves, perhaps we should recognize different types of human(oid) cargo? Like having people from different races "Alienracename Slaves" or "Lettersalad Passengers."
Shameless Self-Promotion 0/ magenta 0/ Forum Rules & Game FAQ
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#6
I like this idea.

So, in short, a procedural "periodic table of elements" which compose the raw materials in this game.
These raw materials can be combined to form alloys, which is also procedurally generated.
Raw materials and/or alloys can then be combined using blueprints to make things.

This could lead to some very interesting universes.

My dream economy/industry component for a game is allowing for custom mixes of metals.

Each element has a few procedural properties. For this example lets use physical strength, electric conductivity, and heat resistance. Alloys are made from mixing materials. The player can make cheep steel by combining 80% iron with 20% carbon, and the steel alloy gets its properties based on the ingredients and ratios. Or another batch of steel can be made with 95% iron, 4% carbon, and 1% silver. That batch is more expensive to make, but is stronger and has a signature shine to it in the starlight.

The procedural component would alter (be it big or small) those basic values in each universe. In one universe the "best" mix of steel might be 80-20, and in another seed it could be 70-28-2% nickle. The more wiggle room the procedural system has, the more wild and exotic some universes could be. Transparent aluminum ships because in one seed it ends up being the best structure material!
David -- Proud to be saving the world since 1984
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#7
having to learn our own periodic table was a menace for me to begin with much less learn a new table each time i form a new game world. and take that a step futher to have to learn the combinations that make useful alloys and the new trade values would make me want to shoot something. and with procedural names i can see 2 elements being relatively close in spelling and even being used in other worlds to describe a different element altogether. now having 5000000000000 different resources to interact with is one thing and believe me id eventually learn each and every one of them but to have an infinite list of material thats never the same would drive me to ignore that portion of the game compleatly and settle for letting the npcs handle my trade agreements...
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#8
Got to agree with Dadalos here. K.I.S.S. would probably be a better approach than being complicated for the sake of being complicated. When I go and buy a new Ship/Hull I want to make sure that I actually get something usable, no pour a small kingdom's worth of raw materials into building dozens of hulls in the vain hope to get something worthwhile.

Being singleplayer, I also see no reason to make LT too grindy. A bit of work is needed for getting that nice feeling of achievement when you unlock/buy/manufacture a new toy, but let's keep away from excessive grinding only to get worthwhile stuff.
Hardenberg was my name
And Terra was my nation
Deep space is my dwelling place
The stars my destination
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#9
I still remember the discussion about pottery on the Dwarf Fortress forum.
Being a professional myself, I outlined the basics so that it might have some connection with reality.
Sure enough, some would argue that it was "necessary" to use a real life implementation. For starters that means that "clay", even though it may have the same (or in some cases similar) chemical composition, can have 2-4 common mineralogical types, which would behave quite differently. Usually a clay deposit consists of a mix of several chemical and mineralogical types of "clay".

Material sciences have no place in a computer game except as a source of technobabble.
Go with KISS. A thousand times KISS. =P
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#10
Dadalos wrote:having to learn our own periodic table was a menace for me to begin with much less learn a new table each time i form a new game world. and take that a step futher to have to learn the combinations that make useful alloys and the new trade values would make me want to shoot something. and with procedural names i can see 2 elements being relatively close in spelling and even being used in other worlds to describe a different element altogether. now having 5000000000000 different resources to interact with is one thing and believe me id eventually learn each and every one of them but to have an infinite list of material thats never the same would drive me to ignore that portion of the game compleatly and settle for letting the npcs handle my trade agreements...
I think there'd be a limit on the number of elements. Atoms tend to be unstable past a certain number of protons.

Well, assuming that each universe operates under similar microscopic principles to ours. But at any rate, you could only have about a hundred different elements before things start to get wonky.

But maybe we could limit the number of procedurally generated commodities to something like fifty and then everything else is stuff that we know from real life (Gold, Consumer Goods, Robotic Machinery, Yttrium, Neon, etc).
Shameless Self-Promotion 0/ magenta 0/ Forum Rules & Game FAQ
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#11
Grumblesaur wrote:But maybe we could limit the number of procedurally generated commodities to something like fifty and then everything else is stuff that we know from real life (Gold, Consumer Goods, Robotic Machinery, Yttrium, Neon, etc).
i like the idea of knowing what im trading in. i can figure out how valuable gold is per system but learning the value of bersitite ( a strange blue ice) +1 to your idea.
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#12
I used the phrase Periodic Table as a colloquialism more than anything else. Full on material science simulation does not have a place in these kind of games, nor a random creation of 100ish elements. I do, however, think an abstraction can be fun for the more industrial type of player, especially min maxers.

1) Restrictions: There should be some consistencies between universes. To use more terrestrial examples, iron should always be the bulk building material in all seeds. Iron + carbon should always make steel. What would change from seed to seed is a drift in the stats: Iron may have a strength of 8 in one seed, and 10 in another.

2) Reverse engineering: This wouldn't be like minecraft where you start alone in a giant unknown world. There is an existing universe with existing technology and knowledge. In the universe generation phase there can be a few iterations to find sane starting defaults and blueprints. Player and non player entities can then reverse engineer items to figure out what they are made of. Was a ship harder to destroy than normal? Collect the wreckage to find out what its armor was made out of, if you want.

3) Keep it simple: Only a small number of stats should be needed. It should also be simple to figure out how those base stats impact the stats of more complicated manufactured goods. Those goods should also have just a small number of stats. For example, a hull blueprint gets its strength from the alloy used * 100. If you used a batch of 80-20 steel with a strength of 20, your hull will have a strength of 2000. If you use a 90-8-2 mix you found from a wreckage with a strength of 30, your hull will have a strength of 3000.

4) Stats always visible: This kind of system only works if material stats are always visible. You shouldn't have to make 100 hulls to figure out which is the best mix. You should know right away what to expect from a batch of alloy and using known, easy calculations.
David -- Proud to be saving the world since 1984
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#14
croxis wrote:I used the phrase Periodic Table as a colloquialism more than anything else. Full on material science simulation does not have a place in these kind of games, nor a random creation of 100ish elements. I do, however, think an abstraction can be fun for the more industrial type of player, especially min maxers.

1) Restrictions: There should be some consistencies between universes. To use more terrestrial examples, iron should always be the bulk building material in all seeds. Iron + carbon should always make steel. What would change from seed to seed is a drift in the stats: Iron may have a strength of 8 in one seed, and 10 in another.

2) Reverse engineering: This wouldn't be like minecraft where you start alone in a giant unknown world. There is an existing universe with existing technology and knowledge. In the universe generation phase there can be a few iterations to find sane starting defaults and blueprints. Player and non player entities can then reverse engineer items to figure out what they are made of. Was a ship harder to destroy than normal? Collect the wreckage to find out what its armor was made out of, if you want.

3) Keep it simple: Only a small number of stats should be needed. It should also be simple to figure out how those base stats impact the stats of more complicated manufactured goods. Those goods should also have just a small number of stats. For example, a hull blueprint gets its strength from the alloy used * 100. If you used a batch of 80-20 steel with a strength of 20, your hull will have a strength of 2000. If you use a 90-8-2 mix you found from a wreckage with a strength of 30, your hull will have a strength of 3000.

4) Stats always visible: This kind of system only works if material stats are always visible. You shouldn't have to make 100 hulls to figure out which is the best mix. You should know right away what to expect from a batch of alloy and using known, easy calculations.
I get kicked out of games (or noone will play with me) because i consider myself a min/maxer (for instance i micro managed my character development in oblivion so that with nothing on every skill and stat was 115 MIN. with gear stats could reach well beyond that...did it make a difference? not really but it was something to be able to say. XD ). having said that I like the refinement on your system for making implantation easier such as the restrictions and keeping it simple. the things that realy caught my attention was the mention of reverse engineering and visable stats. while it might not be initialy evedent if a ship was harder or not to defeat (for example you upgraded your weapons a little while ago so everythings a bit easier) the ability to anilize the quality of metal would be huge to a miner or prospector whos lookin to trade high quality metal/mineral/gass to get better returns on his sales. and the visable stats might also be influenced by the efficiency of your equipment for example a scanner thats only soso might read that mid grade iron accuratly but be a few points off in quality when compared to a higher-end (more expensive higher power requirement scanner which would not only list its quality but also list a comparison to other ores you have.)

now doing things this way might prove worthwhile XD. but care has to be taken to both make it worthile to invest time into traching down and buy/trade/steal 'better' material vs just picking things up as you go. we cant alienate new players who mightnot even understand a involved process like this. but we cant under-power the rewards of it or noone will bother with it...
Grumblesaur wrote:I feel the stats on individual metals and alloys might be pushing the RPG elements of the game into inventory micromanagement a little too much. But I also suppose it might be interesting, and it would give all of those rare ores and compounds a purpose other than mining and selling constantly.
im all for giving 'merchent junk' a porpose. i hate looking into my inventory/cargo and just seeing 'vendor trash' i like collecting odds and ends and learning 'ha that trash was realy useful' mmm i see an episode of 'hoarders in space' intervention coming my way...
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Procedurally generated building materials

#15
As awesome as this might be for an economy, I feel like it focuses too much on just minerals. What about other resources, like food, air, water, fuel sources, etc.? If there are as many (or more) types of minerals as all other resources combined, it turns mining into its own sub-economy (which, I guess, could be a plus for some people).

I feel like it would be better to keep things simpler. How many different metals do you really need? I mean, sure it's cool to explore a new sector and meet an alien race who uses some exotic metal in their ship construction - or to just explore an uncharted asteroid belt and discover the only known source of a previously unknown but highly valuable mineral - but I don't feel like that's something that really needs to be implemented.

That said, the idea of being able to mix your own alloys based on a few different stats which are random within limits is a really interesting idea, but if you have 50 different metals and can combine any of them in various percentages, you end up with a ridiculous number of potential alloys that can also be sold and bartered. It would turn trade menus into a nightmare, having to look through each alloy to see its various strengths and weaknesses.

If there were only a few types of metals (say, 10? I'm just making up a number), it wouldn't be that difficult to figure out which ones do which, particularly if their stats stay basically within the same range (so, Iron has a randomly-generated strength between 8-12), and this would also limit the number of possible alloys. If you REALLY wanted variety, you could have a pool of maybe 15 or 20 resources, but a given universe only implements a certain number (with common ones like iron always included). That way you wouldn't have to learn an entirely new set every new game.

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