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Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#1
I haven't read anything about the factions/civilizations that the players interact with but I assume that every single NPC will belong to a "faction" even if they are pirates.

Now, this is 50% suggestion and 50% question because some game concepts haven't been defined very strictly (or at least I haven't read anything about it) so bear with me.

First of all, definitions;

What is a faction, civilization and/or race within LT?

All NPCs belong to a race, faction and civilization, in that order.

Races, factions and civs are procedurally generated when a new game is created and evolve (expand, explore, conquer or are conquered and even face extinction) as the game progresses.
These races, although random in their placing, tech and even nomeclature each time you create a new game still draw from a set table so you always have Humans, Alien Race 1, Alien Race 2, etc.
Races would either a) have no in game stat/trait bonus or b) have race specific bonus which also impact on Main Character Creation.

What is a Civilization + Civilization Types

Within LT a civ is a independent, self contained, culturally heterogeneous group of factions that share the same goal. It might be composed of several states (colonies, star bases, etc) or even multiple races (assuming it isn't a genocidal civ and that it conquers and integrates other races) but it still functions independently and with it's own set of goals.

Civilization types define the general AI of a specific civ, if it is expansionist, militaristic, culturally progressive, xenophobic, mercantile, etc. Civs might have multiple trait types but not contradictory traits(e.g. culturally progressive + xenophobic).

Civs are composed of two tiers of factions: state factions and private factions. State factions are directly dependent of and serve the state of their respective civilization e.g. the Parnell Republic would have a Parnell Republican Navy faction, a Parnell Republic Space Research Labs, the Parnell Republic Police Force faction, etc.

Private factions are still members of the civ but usually aren't directly involved in it's official decisions. They can be high profile (major corporations) or local enterprises (planet Dushok Miner's Guild) In regards to warfare, private factions are still considered members of their respective civs but are not forced to actively seek out enemies(e.g. The Parnell Republic declares war on the Joshian Alliance; the state factions of each civ engage each other on sight but each respective private factions are free to engage or not; think of it like civilians and military, civilians of a country under attack are free to both engage the enemy or just run away and continue with their lives.)



Outsiders: Independent Factions + Separatists, Pirates, Corsairs, Smugglers, Freelancers and Mercenaries (PMC)

Independent Factions are factions not directly tied to a civ either because they have split off to form their own civ (which would happen once they reach a certain population threshold) or because they are fighting their own civ to gain independence.
(e.g. Planet Rokkan declares independence from the Parnell Republic. If they manage to eventually have a cease fire and retain their independence they become a new civ and spawn new factions or are destroyed/reabsorbed into the original civ.)

Pirates, Corsairs and Freelancers are a special case; although they all have race tags they are not affiliated with a specific civ though they might be destroyed or conquered and integrated by a civ. The difference between the three groups is as follows:

Pirates - raiders and looters, usually operating in border worlds and zones with natural phenomenon that might cloak their criminal activities. Would usually set a resupply base in a asteroid field and raid trading lanes.

Smugglers - basically traders operating outside the law. This could mean either trading between warring factions or simply trading in illegal/dangerous goods.

Corsairs - Corsairs operate either solo (large ships) or in bands and they are state sanctioned privateers that dedicate themselves to trade route raiding and military black ops. In short, they are state sanctioned pirates. Each corsair group would be associated with a civ state hence making them a state faction but operating outside the traditional civ zone.

Freelancers - freelancers are, well, the player and NPC's who owe no allegiance to any particular civ or faction. They can be of any race, fly any type of ship and engage in any activity they see fit. They are the unsung heroes and villains of the Universe.

Mercenaries - Also known as Private Military Contractors, mercenaries are... well, a sum of all of the above under the guidance of a corporate leader. Serving whoever pays better and right now, mercenaries might serve Corporation X today and State Y tomorrow and might be assigned to protect trade lanes or as planetary defense troops. They aren't pirates or corsairs, raiding the lanes and roaming the dark corners of the galaxy out for loot, they are professional military forces that work for money but within the laws of each State.

Faction Reputation and Civ Reputation

The measure by which the player is regarded by a specific faction and it's parent civ is the Faction and Civilization Reputation. Performing positive actions towards that faction increases the player rep both for the target faction as well as it's parent civ. The reputation system also defines how a specific faction and even civ would react to the presence of the player as well as other NPCs.
(e.g the Player is a merchant who has been supplying refined minerals to Corporation Zed and as such his rep with the faction continuously increases. With higher rep comes new trading options, ship crafting or buying privileges and even the chance at being the leader/CEO of a faction.)

With enough support from multiple factions of the same civ the Player might even try and become leader of that civilization!
Likewise, constantly harassing that faction, destroying assets or helping enemy/competing factions would lower the player rep with that faction and civ and even cause them to decide and hunt down the player or openly declare him an enemy of the state.

Quests, trading, combat and non combat space missions, crafting, all interactions with NPC's are interactions with factions and civs so reputations is in constant flow and flux, gaining on one side and losing on another.

The Player Faction

The player starts as a Freelancer, an independent agent. This gives him the freedom to amass all the wealth and military might he might want while remaining free from any particular Civ or Faction, with a mercenary fleet working for the highest bidder.
However, he might decide to become the leader of a Civilization; aside from conquering an already existing civ, the player might want to create his OWN empire, his own civilization.

Either by colonizing a new world (or even better, several worlds) or simply guiding an already existing colony to economic prowess and taking the reins of power, at a certain population threshold the player might declare himself leader of that world (or worlds).
The new civ, named by the player, is under it's direct control, an empire which he can guide and shape as he wish, either from his throne on his homeworld or from the stars on his imperial fleet.
As ruler (King, President, Emperor, that's up to the player) the player can guide the destiny of not only himself by millions of worlds under his command, colonizing and conquering new and old worlds with a mighty fleet, controlling the ebb and flow of commerce, nominating viceroys or CEOs for his multiple estates, etc.

Or simply becoming the benign ruler of a wealthy planet and a merchant prince, neutral but powerful, virtually untouchable, controlling the wallets of a thousand empires. It's up to the player.


Well, like I said in the intro, this is 50% suggestion and 50% concept theory, some of the the concepts i've suggested are perfectly do-able depending on the engine and are already in place or very similar to the mechanics of other games (namely Dwarf Fortress).

Anyway, hope you enjoyed the read. Give me your input.
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#2
I do like this thread and even though its rather long to read its worth it ( i myself being found guilty of being rather long winded XD )

when you said:
'With enough support from multiple factions of the same civ the Player might even try and become leader of that civilization!
Likewise, constantly harassing that faction, destroying assets or helping enemy/competing factions would lower the player rep with that faction and civ and even cause them to decide and hunt down the player or openly declare him an enemy of the state.'

when i came to being reported as an enemy of the civ/fac in question the penalties should only be applied if theres a way for it to actually be reported. for instance im sitting in the shadow of a large asteroid/moon/cloud of dust ect and i pick up a transport vessel from a faction thats stiffed me on my payments one to many times. i (in theory) could jam their communications and provided none of the ships escape i should be able to take out/capture that ship without penalty to my personal reputation seeing as how they dont know i was involved. obviously as more of there ships disappear they would send guardian ships with their trans ports and if one is not careful they would put two and two together... and its not unlikely that all the blame would fall on you when your discovered. but imagine the fun of pirating one faction and then framing another faction for it. XD
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#4
Legryf wrote:Only 1 comment? I guess it was either too long of a post or rather uninteresting. :)
more likely to long. its rather substantial post in terms of information and ideas. just more than most ppl are willing to read. XD
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#5
I don't think you can design a faction without leaving out how this would affect it's navy.
The ships / stations probably make up most of your interaction with that faction.


Since factions will be procedurally generated, only individual properties make sense.
A lot of these can simply be reversed...


Megalomaniac
This is not a moon!
All ships are a lot bigger but the faction owns fewer ships total.
If they use fighters at all then these are super heavy fighters who can pretty much work independently.
This eliminates a big part of all the faction features! A game should never strive to eliminate it's core features. =P

Peaceful
A higher proportion of the ships are merchant hulls. Probably no huge warships at all. Destroyers (classic merchant escort) or small patrol boats are more likely.

Landlubber
Planet bound. Use very few ships total.

Duelist
Have a strange affection for fixed forward lasers, even on large vessels.
High maneuverability.

Turtle
Turrets are a priority, even on fighters. Can mount turrets in more places than other races.

Warhead
These guys love missiles in all shapes and forms. Should have some advantage in damage, fire rate, or something similar.

Speed Freak
Life on the fast lane. Not as heavily armed or armoured as other factions but forget running.

Top Gun
Everything is a carrier. Even their merchant hulls have hangars.

Wanderers
The center of these guys' civilisation is a generation ship that slowly wanders around the universe, looking for... whatever.
They use mobile mining as they go and their home is obviously also a shipyard.

Nanotech
They don't use shields but have nanobots maintaining /repairing their hulls with frightful speed.

Space Native
These guys don't even need an atmosphere so you literally have to shoot their ships to scrap metal to stop them.

More Dakka
Love heavy guns and would rather skip the puny point defense lasers. Oh, and rocket pods!

Parasite
Alien body snatchers who steal every ship (and crew!) they can get their tentacles on.
Every ship is completely random.

Lurker
Ships have the ability to attach themselves to asteroids or space wreckage, becoming invisible to sensors - but not visual.
Get too close and they attack you with powerful short range weapons.




Faction relevant properties:

Corrupt
Navy ships may occasionally ask you to pay a "protection tax".
They aren't pirates, though, nosir! If you don't pay their "tax", they attack you as the obvious outlaw that you are.

Psychotic
Every 37 minutes they make a sanity check. If they fail, they attack you.
It might also be triggered by you passing between them and the sun, which is a mortal insult.
Aliens are alien.

Quixotic
If they see you being attacked - preferably by a bigger ship - they start following you around and protecting you.
Cool beans, free wingmen!
Trouble is, they really are batshit crazy and have made a lot of enemies in the past.
Also, if you attack (or defend against) a smaller ship, they might just decide that is is the honourable thing to help your attacker, even if they are currently "protecting" you.
Your newfound allies may well end up being a lot more trouble than they are worth.

Racist
If you attack / assist one of their ships directly, the relation effect is doubled. Anything that deos not directly involve them, like you shooting pirates in their space, gets you 1/3 of the regular effect.


The Player Faction
This is actually one of the problems in X3.
Once you're everybody's chum, any sort of difficulty just ceases to exist.

The player is independent of anything. Oh, it's sandboxy as hell but as a developer, it gives you far fewer tools to get the player into trouble.
Now if the player is part of the Human faction, he might be held responsible for the actions of other humans.
Might have to chase down a bunch of human pirates that are raiding the space around Silos 3. Or else.
Last edited by Gazz on Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#6
I also have the problem with being friends with everyone. sure its nice at first never having to worry about anyone attacking you ( other than the occasional rogue pirate or what not) but overall having one faction get angry with you the more you aid a sworn enemy of theirs would prove to be a realistic feature. though i might be mutually hated for being opportunistic with my trading which in itself is realistic XD.
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#7
There are classic archetypes which can keep that from happening in most cases. The classic is pirating vs police. It can get a little more nuanced though. Nation A invaded Nation C as is occupying their territory. Nation A think the remaining Nation C as pirates/terrorist/etc and will treat any trade dealings or diplomacy with them as a crime, even if it isn't contraband. Nation B isn't a fan of nation C either, but as long as the goods are legal they wont mind. Nation C think of themselves as freedom fighters and thinks anyone dealing with nation A as one of their oppressors. Nation B isn't happy with nation A's invasion and put up a trade embargo with them.

Situations like this make the reputation system a lot more difficult to balance, esepcally if faction relations are dynamic. It also increases the depth of the player's narrative.
David -- Proud to be saving the world since 1984
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#8
You also need ways to make all these political / economic relations visible to the player.

If you are able to talk to these freedom fighters, for instance, they would no doubt tell you how they are being oppressed and about the violence inherent in the system.

That requires content / writing.
If you use something like a generic table / matrix this may be possible to display in a generic way but there is the danger of looking too far out of character because every faction basically becomes a number. (which it is, but I'm talking about looks =)

One approach would be akin to the D&D alignment system. Lawful/evil/chaotic... you know.
Just as sliding scales instead of merely 3 distinct states.


A 2D matrix where one axis is Lawful - Evil.
This displays how faction A considers the political situation or legality of faction B.
An illegal / oppressive regime would be seen as evil, a generally trustworthy neighbor as lawful.

Diplomatic missions (or destroying the ambassador's ship =) would affect the standing.
Very limited military action (coercion) could improve the standing - unless a lot of civilian property is destroyed in the process. That never ends well.


The other axis is for economic interest, reaching from "trade" to "economic war".
A positive value signifies that faction A is actively trading with faction B, getting economic aid of some sort, or merely desiring to trade with them.
Neutral means little contact or insignificant interaction either way.
Economic war means that the faction is interested in a hostile takeover or feels threatened economically.
If faction B builds a large distribution center in my space, their economic relation goes up because the trade is assumed to benefit both sides.
If pirates raid my merchants in their space, the economic relation goes down - even if it's not them who are doing the pirating.
If the other faction is asteroid mining in my space or "buying up" corporations, this might hurt relations, too.

A faction could be generated with general modifications to these values. A xenophobic faction gets a malus to both.
A faction of "avid traders" gets a bonus to trade relations.

There may arise situations where factions would be open enemies because their political systems are opposed - but they are closely tied by trade so neither side wants to go to war.
The anarchist planet may not like the pirates but they are selling all their loot there so they are tolerated.
OTOH, political allies could endure considerable economic differences.



The relations A - B are not the same as the relations B - A.
A faction of traders might be wanting to increase trade but their xenophobic neighbors want to hear nothing of it.

Factions with strong "trade ties" but opposed political systems might tolerate merchants but no military ships in their space - or maybe just smaller escorts if their relations are so-so.



Obviously this is a simplified system but it's relatively easy to display and manage as a 2D area.
Suited for PG because the overall relation can be determined quickly with only 2 numbers.
And relations can change gradually instead of having just a few discrete states like peace or war.

This also allows the player to actively interact with the universe.
You may not be able to wage open war on a faction A but what if you raid the merchants of a faction B in their space... preferrably without leaving witnesses?
Unless the overall economic ties between them are incredibly strong (try harder! =), faction B will lower their economic score towards A.
Keep it up long enough and B may even declare war on A.
By rooting out pirates in a region of space, you may be instrumental in creating a strong alliance and strong economy - which helps you through overall increased availability of wares and technology. Profit margins may not be as high as you'd like, though, because the peaceful times reduce costs. =)
War could be equally beneficial. Space might become more dangerous through blockades but prices rise... and warfare technology might become more of a focus of these factions.

A simple system that allows to "manage" factions with a minimum of numerical bookkeeping but most importantly, allows the player to interact with factions in a meaningful, non-scripted way.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#9
Gazz wrote:You also need ways to make all these political / economic relations visible to the player.
JoshParnell wrote:
Dadalos wrote:would this feature also tell you the relation you have with various known factions?
Oh yes of course, that's a critical one.

already discussed and done with. it was brought up on one of the forums asking about the game tracking in game stats and whether or not you could view them. and i asked about whether or not it would show diplomacy standing among knowen factions. and i got a response saying that it was a must have feature. so rest assured this is well in hand XD.
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#10
I hope if this is all added that relations would be more deep. Instead of blanketing an entire faction for killing one of their ships, you could kill the ship before it tries to tell them who you are or suit up your ship as another faction to try and cause war without cost to yourself. If your killing is noted, the entire faction wont suddenly despise you, the most loyal and fervent will but the more slack or rebellious will be neutral or even like you for it. Not to mention if you zapped some ones biggest competitor in the faction or some one who was stirring trouble the leaders of the faction might even like you for it.
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#11
The Hedge Knight wrote:I hope if this is all added that relations would be more deep. Instead of blanketing an entire faction for killing one of their ships, you could kill the ship before it tries to tell them who you are or suit up your ship as another faction to try and cause war without cost to yourself. If your killing is noted, the entire faction wont suddenly despise you, the most loyal and fervent will but the more slack or rebellious will be neutral or even like you for it. Not to mention if you zapped some ones biggest competitor in the faction or some one who was stirring trouble the leaders of the faction might even like you for it.
judging from joshes responses at to the level of ai flexibility this wouldent be to fa off the mark. considering each npc has an individual relationship (memory) with your person. and then the faction itself would have a collective memory.

now somewhere on one of the 3-4 pirate forums its been suggested that if a crimes not reported/witnessed then obviously no reputation penalty should be implied. though the suggestion for ship disguised is new and potentially very versatile. (finaly a use for all those ships ive taken over...other than stripping them down for parts and scrap metal.)
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#12
Instead of assigning strict roles to an AI faction, perhaps it would be enough to assign attitudes to races, factions and NPCs.
A race could have the same attitude overall, different factions belonging to this race would have variations of these stats. Some attitudes might be even on the NPC level (xenophobia?)

Besides these attitudes, NPC should also have a morality. Will they kick a man that's down or help him out?

Attitudes can include:
- Bravery : 0% = Coward / 100% = Captain America
- Aggressiveness : 0% = not inclined to act aggressively / 100% = very aggressive
- Passive: Not the reverse of aggressiveness. How passive someone is influences how quickly they'll take action.
- Technologist: 0% = not inclined to discover new technology / 100% = driven by technology and the will to discover more.
- Protective: 0% = not very concerned about their peers or property / 100% = very protective and loyal to their peers & property
- Xenophobic: % afraid of other races / cultures
- Isolation: % prefered not to deal with other races / cultures, not fear based
- Expansionist
- Swarm: Swarms are inclined to stay close together. Individual NPCs still have free will, but will think of the good of the faction.
- Hive: High hive rating will mean less free thought. Everything they do is for the good of the group. Kamikaze is a valid option for them.
- Neutrality
- ...

Some of these attitudes can also be motivations. Meaning they'd reinforce the inclination of an AI to go up a certain path.
A culture based on expanding that thinks it needs to expand, will expand. The way they do it is determined by their other attitudes.

Most of these attitudes can be linked to ship layouts and combat behaviour too.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#13
@Katorone

Really like the idea of these stats influencing faction relations/decisions and also those separate race traits, like in the Mass Effect universe, the krogan are aggressive and territorial but there may be merchants within the faction who are more inclined to keep the peace the sake of trade.

Seen some great ideas that would really add depth and complexity to interacting with factions and civs. :)
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Re: Factions + Civilizations Suggestions

#14
Katorone wrote:Instead of assigning strict roles to an AI faction, perhaps it would be enough to assign attitudes to races, factions and NPCs.
A race could have the same attitude overall, different factions belonging to this race would have variations of these stats. Some attitudes might be even on the NPC level (xenophobia?)

Besides these attitudes, NPC should also have a morality. Will they kick a man that's down or help him out?

Attitudes can include:
- Bravery : 0% = Coward / 100% = Captain America
- Aggressiveness : 0% = not inclined to act aggressively / 100% = very aggressive
- Passive: Not the reverse of aggressiveness. How passive someone is influences how quickly they'll take action.
- Technologist: 0% = not inclined to discover new technology / 100% = driven by technology and the will to discover more.
- Protective: 0% = not very concerned about their peers or property / 100% = very protective and loyal to their peers & property
- Xenophobic: % afraid of other races / cultures
- Isolation: % prefered not to deal with other races / cultures, not fear based
- Expansionist
- Swarm: Swarms are inclined to stay close together. Individual NPCs still have free will, but will think of the good of the faction.
- Hive: High hive rating will mean less free thought. Everything they do is for the good of the group. Kamikaze is a valid option for them.
- Neutrality
- ...

Some of these attitudes can also be motivations. Meaning they'd reinforce the inclination of an AI to go up a certain path.
A culture based on expanding that thinks it needs to expand, will expand. The way they do it is determined by their other attitudes.

Most of these attitudes can be linked to ship layouts and combat behaviour too.
Would be interesting to introduce genetic algorithms into this (when one faction assimilates another, peacefully or through war, traits of the assimilated faction (alleles) would be bred with the assimilator faction and subsequent units for that faction would inherit those traits). Would be interesting to see what "optimal" faction comes out of that, or whether there even is an "optimal" faction.

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