Idunno wrote:That effectively limits how you steal the tech.

Except that, as I've explained in previous posts, a faction will frequently need to escort the blueprint module around space in order to seed production modules (for the purpose of manufacturing assemblers) and research modules (for the purpose of developing new technology), making it more vulnerable during those periods to be captured in ambush attacks.

ThymineC wrote:

Idunno wrote:That effectively limits how you steal the tech.

Except that, as I've explained in previous posts, a faction will frequently need to escort the blueprint module around space in order to seed production modules (for the purpose of manufacturing assemblers) and research modules (for the purpose of developing new technology), making it more vulnerable during those periods to be captured in ambush attacks.

So why not bring the production modules to the blueprint?
On that note research modules sound pretty big. Can you steal with a small ship while no one is looking?

Idunno wrote:

ThymineC wrote:

Idunno wrote:That effectively limits how you steal the tech.

Except that, as I've explained in previous posts, a faction will frequently need to escort the blueprint module around space in order to seed production modules (for the purpose of manufacturing assemblers) and research modules (for the purpose of developing new technology), making it more vulnerable during those periods to be captured in ambush attacks.

So why not bring the production modules to the blueprint?

As I wrote in the original post:

ThymineC wrote:In our discussion we assumed that production modules come in different sizes, with larger production modules having the capability to produce assemblers (and other physical goods) at a higher rate, but being more difficult to transport. For instance, station-scale production modules might offer a very high rate of production but might be too large to build in one spot and then relocate to the station site later. In these cases, you would have to build the production modules in situ.

As well as this, we discussed how, even if a production module might be originally configured to produce one kind of assembler, the controlling agent might wish to switch production to a different kind of assembler later on.

Both of these cases would necessitate the physical transportation of the blueprint to the site of a production module at some other location, in order that the blueprint can be applied to the module.

At this point I'm just repeating points that I've already made.

Idunno wrote:On that note research modules sound pretty big. Can you steal with a small ship while no one is looking?

It depends on the size of the module and the cargohold capacity of your vessel.

So wait, I can't travel around in a mobile flotilla, producing assemblers on the fly? Because the production modules are too big for my ships to carry around?

Idunno wrote:So wait, I can't travel around in a mobile flotilla, producing assemblers on the fly? Because the production modules are too big for my ships to carry around?

What? I wrote that they come in different sizes, and some are small enough to be installed aboard your vessel...

ThymineC wrote:

Idunno wrote:So wait, I can't travel around in a mobile flotilla, producing assemblers on the fly? Because the production modules are too big for my ships to carry around?

What? I wrote that they come in different sizes, and some are small enough to be installed aboard your vessel...

Yay!

ThymineC wrote:

Alcazabedabra wrote:It doesn't make sense that a module which is essentially a laboratory for technical development would turn into a blueprint. A blueprint, as a physical object, would be some sort of data storage medium. I envision it as a stack of hard-disk platters or maybe some reels of high-density archival data tape of some sort. It would fit in a briefcase, certainly, and if you want to be real about it, it would fit in something the size of a MicroSD chip.

Yes it would, but the research module essentially doubles as a storage device. Even though blueprints could easily be fit into an extremely miniaturised form, the blueprint data is physically encoded inside the research module. I imagine that once the blueprint data is finalised, the data is "crystallised" into the research module at the logic-gate level, making the blueprint data unmodifiable and as secure as physically possible.

Why all this? For exactly the reasons I give here - the full blueprint data is never allowed to leave the research module for whatever reason, so the research module becomes (essentially) the "blueprint" itself. This ensures blueprints remain unique and reduces the chance that blueprint data gets stolen to an absolute minimum - there is only one "weak spot" in the entire setup, and that is the blueprint module itself, which presumably a faction will keep under tight security as often as possible if stores valuable information.

I understand that it might seem strange initially, but once you understand the reasons behind this decision, it should all seem much more plausible.

Its still ridicolous.
Intel headquarters: "yay! We invented a new generation of processors! now we have to rebuild silicon valley... again..."

It would be an waste of perfectly fine laboratory equipment (which's relative price shurely wont get down).

Also: you likely need major facilities to install eqipment and modules in big ships and stations.
How do you steal an "blueprint" if you have to drag an shipyard with you if you want to steal it?
It would completely remove the opportunity for small factions to steal important data.
You would always need to mount an raid with major military forces to steal what is essentially an usb-stick.
No sneaky gameplay possible anymore.

Cornflakes_91 wrote:Its still ridicolous.
Intel headquarters: "yay! We invented a new generation of processors! now we have to rebuild silicon valley... again..."

I'm not sure what you mean by "we have to rebuild silicon valley again".

When you finish researching one technology, the blueprint data crystallises inside the research module, turning it into a blueprint module. You can then get a fresh research module and "seed" it with the blueprint module. Research modules are generic, one-size-fits-all kind of things, so you're not really rebuilding anything.

Cornflakes_91 wrote:It would be an waste of perfectly fine laboratory equipment (which's relative price shurely wont get down).

The value of "wasted" mass-produced laboratory equipment is incomparible to the value of the technology itself. By vacuum-sealing off the lab, you reduce the risk of having your technology stolen to an absolute minimum, more than making up for the waste in lab equipment.

Cornflakes_91 wrote:Also: you likely need major facilities to install eqipment and modules in big ships and stations.
How do you steal an "blueprint" if you have to drag an shipyard with you if you want to steal it?
It would completely remove the opportunity for small factions to steal important data.
You would always need to mount an raid with major military forces to steal what is essentially an usb-stick.
No sneaky gameplay possible anymore.

I hadn't considered this - thanks for making me like the idea even more. The higher the level of technology that a faction is researching, the larger and more powerful the research module they're likely to be using to develop it, and therefore the larger the resulting blueprint module that it becomes. This immediately helps provide a safeguard for larger factions carrying around more important technology, since smaller factions may not possess large enough ships to steal the blueprint module.

There are two dynamics that result from this:

• It means that factions will try to be realistic and not try to steal technology from factions 20 rungs up the ladder from them i.e. factions will likely cooperate to try and ambush the ships of factions only one or two rungs above them in the economic ladder, as I propose should happen in Market Dynamics in a Dog-Eat-Dog World.
• It allows larger factions to act as patrons to less powerful factions that they are cooperating with. For instance, a powerful faction A might loan large military vessels to a smaller faction B, which could then use those assets to ambush and steal technology from powerful faction C, which happens to be one of A's competitors. By loaning military ships to B to help them ambush and steal a large blueprint module carried by one of C's vessels, and consequently covering up the "paper trail", A can weaken or eliminate their competitor through devious tactics that is difficult to trace back to them. Faction B also benefits from the arrangement in that they can keep the technology and may be able to use it themselves, perhaps giving a fraction of their earnings back to A. This is based on inspiration from On Hiring Factions.

So yes, more advanced technology is correlated with larger blueprint modules, which are harder to steal, and therefore factions will need to work harder and plan smarter and perhaps collaborate with other factions in order to steal more advanced technology. That sounds awesome to me.

Oh, and in my opinion, I've been thinking of major military ambushes being used to steal technology this whole time. The "sneakiness" is getting that military force in position without it getting detected for an ambush, but there should actually be some beef in that fleet. I don't imagine spies stealing blueprints and then running off with them.

ThymineC wrote:

Cornflakes_91 wrote:Also: you likely need major facilities to install eqipment and modules in big ships and stations.
How do you steal an "blueprint" if you have to drag an shipyard with you if you want to steal it?
It would completely remove the opportunity for small factions to steal important data.
You would always need to mount an raid with major military forces to steal what is essentially an usb-stick.
No sneaky gameplay possible anymore.

I hadn't considered this - thanks for making me like the idea even more. The higher the level of technology that a faction is researching, the larger and more powerful the research module they're likely to be using to develop it, and therefore the larger the resulting blueprint module that it becomes. This immediately helps provide a safeguard for larger factions carrying around more important technology, since smaller factions may not possess large enough ships to steal the blueprint module.

There are two dynamics that result from this:

• It means that factions will try to be realistic and not try to steal technology from factions 20 rungs up the ladder from them i.e. factions will likely cooperate to try and ambush the ships of factions only one or two rungs above them in the economic ladder, as I propose should happen in Market Dynamics in a Dog-Eat-Dog World.
• It allows larger factions to act as patrons to less powerful factions that they are cooperating with. For instance, a powerful faction A might loan large military vessels to a smaller faction B, which could then use those assets to ambush and steal technology from powerful faction C, which happens to be one of A's competitors. By loaning military ships to B to help them ambush and steal a large blueprint module carried by one of C's vessels, and consequently covering up the "paper trail", A can weaken or eliminate their competitor through devious tactics that is difficult to trace back to them. Faction B also benefits from the arrangement in that they can keep the technology and may be able to use it themselves, perhaps giving a fraction of their earnings back to A. This is based on inspiration from On Hiring Factions.

So yes, more advanced technology is correlated with larger blueprint modules, which are harder to steal, and therefore factions will need to work harder and plan smarter in order to steal more advanced technology. That sounds awesome to me.

it would still remove the possibility for the "underdog" to harm the much bigger faction.

say you have an really big faction, monopolising everything and fortifying the research system you could actually not do anything against them without major military forces.
which they would crush when they start to emerge in their sphere of influence.

this violates the very idea that you can be sneaky and damage the enemy without going head-first on him.

JoshParnell wrote: Since they're consumed by production, blueprints are now a ubiquitous commodity throughout the universe, just like raw materials. Therein lies substantial opportunity Blueprint theft is now a very real and potentially-lucrative gameplay element. Like any commodity, blueprints can be pirated to resell. But even more interestingly, they can be pirated to use for yourself. Out-teched by a greedy enemy that won't put their tech on the market? Then don't go at them head-on. Be smart about it. Find the transportation link that connects their research plant to their production factory. Scope it out. See that the security isn't what it should be. Plan a hit-and-run to nab the blueprints. Now you've got the key to building weapons of equal power (well, at least a few batches of them)

But even better: prototype theft is now possible. This is huge. Unlike blueprint theft, prototype theft (or destruction) actually damages the 'tech tree' of a faction. Prototypes are unique and non-copyable, so if you manage to steal or destroy one, you cripple the owning faction's technology. Technology can literally be destroyed. And that, my friends, is the most critical piece of all of this. Sure, you can get big. But the bigger you get, the more valuable those prototypes that you're cranking out become. Like a massive box of diamonds just sitting around in your ship / station, they're going to attract attention.

link
[emphasis added]


also: with research modules being so big that you
a: need an station
and
b: need an shipyard to mount them
you would remove research from any smaller faction which cannot affort such heavy facilities.

otherwise they could buy an small module, plug it into an old freighter and do some field research.
bringing more variety into the system

Cornflakes has a point.

Cornflakes_91 wrote:it would still remove the possibility for the "underdog" to harm the much bigger faction.

Not necessarily. As I write, they could use support from another powerful faction. And even without that it should be possible, just very difficult. Which is how I believe it should be. When I've established a powerful faction, I don't want the Zubats of the universe to be serious threats to me - I want those only slightly less powerful than me to be the major threats, along with equally powerful competitors.

Cornflakes_91 wrote:say you have an really big faction, monopolising everything and fortifying the research system you could actually not do anything against them without major military forces.
which they would crush when they start to emerge in their sphere of influence.

Factions will need to carry about blueprint modules frequently in my proposal. The more tech they develop, the more blueprint modules they will need to carry around, and the more they will need to dilute their forces, unless they manage to increase their military assets sufficiently, which will increase their upkeep costs, making it an overall harder system to sustain. But yes, in general you will need major military forces to steal technology from powerful factions.

Cornflakes_91 wrote:this violates the very idea that you can be sneaky and damage the enemy without going head-first on him.

I'm talking about ambushes here. There's still scope for sneaky gameplay to be involved in other ways that damages the enemy - such as stealthily obtaining blueprints from a facility that isn't terribly well-defended. Or using stealthed vessels to shut down or deceive the enemy's intel stations within a system to allow you to get your ambush setup in the first place. Or hacking enemy vessels with viruses to make it easier to destroy them with your ambush later on. And so on.

Cornflakes_91 wrote:

JoshParnell wrote: Since they're consumed by production, blueprints are now a ubiquitous commodity throughout the universe, just like raw materials. Therein lies substantial opportunity Blueprint theft is now a very real and potentially-lucrative gameplay element. Like any commodity, blueprints can be pirated to resell. But even more interestingly, they can be pirated to use for yourself. Out-teched by a greedy enemy that won't put their tech on the market? Then don't go at them head-on. Be smart about it. Find the transportation link that connects their research plant to their production factory. Scope it out. See that the security isn't what it should be. Plan a hit-and-run to nab the blueprints. Now you've got the key to building weapons of equal power (well, at least a few batches of them)

But even better: prototype theft is now possible. This is huge. Unlike blueprint theft, prototype theft (or destruction) actually damages the 'tech tree' of a faction. Prototypes are unique and non-copyable, so if you manage to steal or destroy one, you cripple the owning faction's technology. Technology can literally be destroyed. And that, my friends, is the most critical piece of all of this. Sure, you can get big. But the bigger you get, the more valuable those prototypes that you're cranking out become. Like a massive box of diamonds just sitting around in your ship / station, they're going to attract attention.

But you're not going at them head on. That's the entire point of an ambush - using a few large military vessels instead of one or two spies to steal technology does not equate to manufacturing thousands or tens of thousands of support vessels, frigates, cruisers, destroyers, battleships and capital vessels to launch a 3 month war against another faction, which is the true definition of "head on".

Cornflakes wrote:also: with research modules being so big that you
a: need an station
and
b: need an shipyard to mount them
you would remove research from any smaller faction which cannot affort such heavy facilities.

otherwise they could buy an small module, plug it into an old freighter and do some field research.
bringing more variety into the system

This is already a part of my proposal. Research modules and production modules come in all shapes and all sizes...just like lollipops. Smaller factions can buy smaller research modules and fit them on small vessels, but they likely won't develop any huge revolutionary technology any time soon with it.

ThymineC wrote:This is already a part of my proposal. Research modules and production modules come in all shapes and all sizes...just like lollipops. Smaller factions can buy smaller research modules and fit them on small vessels, but they likely won't develop any huge revolutionary technology any time soon with it.

Personally I prefer a more high tech research module to a bigger research module.

ThymineC wrote:

Cornflakes_91 wrote:Its still ridicolous.
Intel headquarters: "yay! We invented a new generation of processors! now we have to rebuild silicon valley... again..."

I'm not sure what you mean by "we have to rebuild silicon valley again".

When you finish researching one technology, the blueprint data crystallises inside the research module, turning it into a blueprint module. You can then get a fresh research module and "seed" it with the blueprint module. Research modules are generic, one-size-fits-all kind of things, so you're not really rebuilding anything.

"we built this top-notch, high-tech research laboratory that shall bring us many innovations and secure our market advantage for a long time!"
*researches single thing*
"we've made an breakthrough! oh... our research laboratory turned into an oversized USB-stick... lets build another one..."

totally sounds reasonable... yeah

Idunno wrote:

ThymineC wrote:This is already a part of my proposal. Research modules and production modules come in all shapes and all sizes...just like lollipops. Smaller factions can buy smaller research modules and fit them on small vessels, but they likely won't develop any huge revolutionary technology any time soon with it.

Personally I prefer a more high tech research module to a bigger research module.

Well the two are not mutually exclusive. As Josh wrote here, technological innovation affects the density of value, that is, the value per kg of the object. All research modules will have something like a "research rate" or "research capacity", which is a value applicable to them. You can gain a higher research rate, therefore, by:

• Researching higher-tech research modules, increasing their value density, which allows you to research faster with an equal-sized module.
• Buying a bigger research module of the same tech level, which has the same value density but more value overall.

It's analogous to computers nowadays: you want a more powerful computer? Buy higher-tech RAM, CPUs, etc, or buy more RAM and so on.

Cornflakes_91 wrote:"we built this top-notch, high-tech research laboratory that shall bring us many innovations and secure our market advantage for a long time!"
*researches single thing*
"we've made an breakthrough! oh... our research laboratory turned into an oversized USB-stick... lets build another one..."

totally sounds reasonable... yeah

"We bought this relatively cheap, generic laboratory. It shall be used to develop a very valuable piece of technology"

"But what if that technology escapes and our competitors get ahold of it?"

"We keep all the data secure inside the lab. The data never has to leave the lab in its entirety for whatever reason. This is the most secure way of keeping the data safe - the only way it can be stolen is by taking the module as a whole, which will be almost impossible for most of our smaller competitors"