JoshParnell wrote:Katorone is right, there are many different seeds. I will elaborate more on this at a later date, but it's one of the coolest things about universe generation in LT - the fact that you can assemble your own set of seeds to customize the universe (for example, you can take the 'raw materials' of one universe, the 'structure' of another, and the 'personalities' of a third and put them all together into a new universe!)

AI operations are controlled by an AI seed such that the behaviors are indeed deterministic. Whenever the AI needs to make choices, it is using deterministic, seed-based randomness in the same way that the procedural algorithms do.

The determinism lasts only up until the player enters the game. This means that, in theory, you will see the exact same universe & universe history given the same seeds each time you start the universe. But after that point, the universe will start to diverge based on the player's actions.

Works for me.

superspace wrote: You kinda contradicted yourself there. You told me that it basically was a bad I idea to collect seeds yet you say it would be dumb to have a seed functionality without exposing it. The soul purpose of exposing it would be to collect it, and to share it, and in this case create more unique universes from a collection that you have acquired.

But I think you're awesome cornflakes!! its just that my question is pretty valid

I think there might simply be a misunderstanding on the definitions of the terms used.
"Collecting" in most games involves finding some items in a collection while playing the game, hence the term collecting. He may have thought you meant (as I did the first time reading your question) that the player is supposed to play a "starting" game where they find "seed" objects in the game, that they can later use to generate new worlds.
If this is what you meant by "collecting" seeds, then no, that is not how that works.

A seed is a just number (sometimes also letters depending on implementation). Using seed in procedural generation only means that you give the game a starting number to create the world (hence the term seed), and all the calculations use that starting number to determine how every element of the game will turn out. This is why multiple people using the same seed get the same result every time. (As well, a lot of random number generators use the time as a seed, since the number that represents time in a comp will never be the same twice, to make it seem like you get random numbers)

All in all, it means even on your very first time playing LT, you could put in any number for the world generation seed, and it will give you the same result as someone using that same seed, whether it's their first time or their millionth time.

Subsequently, if your definition of "collecting" was more of a meta approach, implying that you're looking at collecting interesting seed values outside of the game(for example, writing a cool seed number on a napkin to give to your friends later), then yes, collecting seeds is in the game. It's just not the terminology that is used for that, most of the time

FireryRage wrote:

superspace wrote: You kinda contradicted yourself there. You told me that it basically was a bad I idea to collect seeds yet you say it would be dumb to have a seed functionality without exposing it. The soul purpose of exposing it would be to collect it, and to share it, and in this case create more unique universes from a collection that you have acquired.

But I think you're awesome cornflakes!! its just that my question is pretty valid

I think there might simply be a misunderstanding on the definitions of the terms used.
"Collecting" in most games involves finding some items in a collection while playing the game, hence the term collecting. He may have thought you meant (as I did the first time reading your question) that the player is supposed to play a "starting" game where they find "seed" objects in the game, that they can later use to generate new worlds.
If this is what you meant by "collecting" seeds, then no, that is not how that works.

A seed is a just number (sometimes also letters depending on implementation). Using seed in procedural generation only means that you give the game a starting number to create the world (hence the term seed), and all the calculations use that starting number to determine how every element of the game will turn out. This is why multiple people using the same seed get the same result every time. (As well, a lot of random number generators use the time as a seed, since the number that represents time in a comp will never be the same twice, to make it seem like you get random numbers)

All in all, it means even on your very first time playing LT, you could put in any number for the world generation seed, and it will give you the same result as someone using that same seed, whether it's their first time or their millionth time.

Subsequently, if your definition of "collecting" was more of a meta approach, implying that you're looking at collecting interesting seed values outside of the game(for example, writing a cool seed number on a napkin to give to your friends later), then yes, collecting seeds is in the game. It's just not the terminology that is used for that, most of the time

Sorry... I guess I meant to say documenting your seed values. As a means of sharing it with others like you said or combining the different seed values of different parts of the game like the system generation and AI characteristics to make an even more custom universe. Yes I lent it as more of a meta approach. Thank you fiery please don't hate me for my mistakes on the forums when I ask or answer.. like I said I'm still new to forums in general lol...

JoshParnell wrote:Katorone is right, there are many different seeds. I will elaborate more on this at a later date, but it's one of the coolest things about universe generation in LT - the fact that you can assemble your own set of seeds to customize the universe (for example, you can take the 'raw materials' of one universe, the 'structure' of another, and the 'personalities' of a third and put them all together into a new universe!)

AI operations are controlled by an AI seed such that the behaviors are indeed deterministic. Whenever the AI needs to make choices, it is using deterministic, seed-based randomness in the same way that the procedural algorithms do.

The determinism lasts only up until the player enters the game. This means that, in theory, you will see the exact same universe & universe history given the same seeds each time you start the universe. But after that point, the universe will start to diverge based on the player's actions.

Thanks a lot for this answer Josh but i am still a bit confused. I get that the AI will use the Seed to get the random answers to its questions but would it not still come out differently because of the simulation. And if it doesn't, why bother with the simulation at all and not just use that seed to generate everything at the time the player enters the Universe?

Neandertal wrote:

JoshParnell wrote:Katorone is right, there are many different seeds. I will elaborate more on this at a later date, but it's one of the coolest things about universe generation in LT - the fact that you can assemble your own set of seeds to customize the universe (for example, you can take the 'raw materials' of one universe, the 'structure' of another, and the 'personalities' of a third and put them all together into a new universe!)

AI operations are controlled by an AI seed such that the behaviors are indeed deterministic. Whenever the AI needs to make choices, it is using deterministic, seed-based randomness in the same way that the procedural algorithms do.

The determinism lasts only up until the player enters the game. This means that, in theory, you will see the exact same universe & universe history given the same seeds each time you start the universe. But after that point, the universe will start to diverge based on the player's actions.

Thanks a lot for this answer Josh but i am still a bit confused. I get that the AI will use the Seed to get the random answers to its questions but would it not still come out differently because of the simulation. And if it doesn't, why bother with the simulation at all and not just use that seed to generate everything at the time the player enters the Universe?

Neandertal, what Josh said could be summarized thus:

"Everything that happens, every little detail of every little thing (including AI decisions and combat outcomes), in the process of starting a new universe, up to the point at which the player enters the scene, all of it traces back to the seed values and is determined by them."

Therefore, history pre-dating the player's entrance will indeed play out in precisely the same way every time for any given seed value combination. (In theory, as Josh said.)

Hope this clears the water rather than muddy it up.

Baile nam Fonn wrote:

Neandertal wrote:

JoshParnell wrote:Katorone is right, there are many different seeds. I will elaborate more on this at a later date, but it's one of the coolest things about universe generation in LT - the fact that you can assemble your own set of seeds to customize the universe (for example, you can take the 'raw materials' of one universe, the 'structure' of another, and the 'personalities' of a third and put them all together into a new universe!)

AI operations are controlled by an AI seed such that the behaviors are indeed deterministic. Whenever the AI needs to make choices, it is using deterministic, seed-based randomness in the same way that the procedural algorithms do.

The determinism lasts only up until the player enters the game. This means that, in theory, you will see the exact same universe & universe history given the same seeds each time you start the universe. But after that point, the universe will start to diverge based on the player's actions.

Thanks a lot for this answer Josh but i am still a bit confused. I get that the AI will use the Seed to get the random answers to its questions but would it not still come out differently because of the simulation. And if it doesn't, why bother with the simulation at all and not just use that seed to generate everything at the time the player enters the Universe?

Neandertal, what Josh said could be summarized thus:

"Everything that happens, every little detail of every little thing (including AI decisions and combat outcomes), in the process of starting a new universe, up to the point at which the player enters the scene, all of it traces back to the seed values and is determined by them."

Therefore, history pre-dating the player's entrance will indeed play out in precisely the same way every time for any given seed value combination. (In theory, as Josh said.)

Hope this clears the water rather than muddy it up.

I think what Neandertal is asking is whether or not the seed has any impact on the decisions that the AI makes. While intuitive we would say 'yes' and that when you use the same seed, everything should be the same between two different instances of the game. But if this is the case, then it would mean that the AI doesn't actually make 'decisions' and that those decisions are relegated to what the seed computes. I know there is no such thing as totally random (for the sake of this argument at least) and the AI won't choose one path one time and a different path a different time, but I think this is still a valid question.

How much freedom do the AIs have, and will it override what the seed can do (once history generation is finished)?

DWMagus wrote:I think what Neandertal is asking is whether or not the seed has any impact on the decisions that the AI makes. While intuitive we would say 'yes' and that when you use the same seed, everything should be the same between two different instances of the game. But if this is the case, then it would mean that the AI doesn't actually make 'decisions' and that those decisions are relegated to what the seed computes. I know there is no such thing as totally random (for the sake of this argument at least) and the AI won't choose one path one time and a different path a different time, but I think this is still a valid question.

How much freedom do the AIs have, and will it override what the seed can do (once history generation is finished)?

I am so happy that you got my point and was able to explain it in a different way.

Randomness is used all over the place in the AI computations. Whenever the AI must make a choice, it uses a source of randomness. Every pseudorandom stream is deterministic based on the parameters that generated that stream ('seed').

This means that, if you use the same seed to generate the 'randomness' for the AI each time, the AI will make the same decisions. It does not mean that the AI didn't have a choice, only that the same choices will be made if the same stream of randomness is used.

Furthermore, just because you know all of the random stream beforehand, does not mean you can simply 'compute' the end result of a historical simulation directly. It's similar to an extremely complex integral that can't be evaluated directly. The only way to get the answer is by discrete integration (which is really what a simulation is), there is no 'function' that can just give you the end result given a seed (well, unless that function performs discrete integration).

So to summarize: yes AI choices are deterministic WRT the pseudorandom stream, no that does not preclude free will / true decisions, and yes we still have to run the (deterministic) simulation in order to generate the universe

JoshParnell wrote:[...]
Furthermore, [...]
So to summarize: [...]

I think it's safe to say he's thought this one through well ahead of us.

(Nice work coaxing these clarifications out of Josh, guys. )
(And I am most certainly not going to further attempt improvements upon your answer, Josh. )

Alright Josh, great answer!

So now, here is the big, big question (and yes I have ulterior motives)...

If you have two instances of the game running side by side, and the player does the EXACT IDENTICAL (to the frame/pixel/moment) thing in each one, does this mean that there will be absolutely no differences between the game instances?

(kudos to those who figured out my ulterior motive )

DWMagus wrote:Alright Josh, great answer!

So now, here is the big, big question (and yes I have ulterior motives)...

If you have two instances of the game running side by side, and the player does the EXACT IDENTICAL (to the frame/pixel/moment) thing in each one, does this mean that there will be absolutely no differences between the game instances?

(kudos to those who figured out my ulterior motive )

Ha

In theory yes. I think.

Thanks for all the clarification Josh.

JoshParnell wrote:Randomness is used all over the place in the AI computations. Whenever the AI must make a choice, it uses a source of randomness. Every pseudorandom stream is deterministic based on the parameters that generated that stream ('seed').

This means that, if you use the same seed to generate the 'randomness' for the AI each time, the AI will make the same decisions. It does not mean that the AI didn't have a choice, only that the same choices will be made if the same stream of randomness is used.

Furthermore, just because you know all of the random stream beforehand, does not mean you can simply 'compute' the end result of a historical simulation directly. It's similar to an extremely complex integral that can't be evaluated directly. The only way to get the answer is by discrete integration (which is really what a simulation is), there is no 'function' that can just give you the end result given a seed (well, unless that function performs discrete integration).

So to summarize: yes AI choices are deterministic WRT the pseudorandom stream, no that does not preclude free will / true decisions, and yes we still have to run the (deterministic) simulation in order to generate the universe

Wow... awesome answer, I have been pondering this exact thing lately - skipping to the result conceptually. But your response here put gaming as a whole into a whole new light for me.... the players are for all intents and purposes nothing more than a variable bouncing around in a formula (with graphics) that is actively being worked out.

Or.. I am just weird and my mind is turning to mush being the end of the week...

DWMagus wrote:Alright Josh, great answer!

So now, here is the big, big question (and yes I have ulterior motives)...

If you have two instances of the game running side by side, and the player does the EXACT IDENTICAL (to the frame/pixel/moment) thing in each one, does this mean that there will be absolutely no differences between the game instances?

(kudos to those who figured out my ulterior motive )

Aarioch wrote:Wow... awesome answer, I have been pondering this exact thing lately - skipping to the result conceptually. But your response here put gaming as a whole into a whole new light for me.... the players are for all intents and purposes nothing more than a variable bouncing around in a formula (with graphics) that is actively being worked out.

Or.. I am just weird and my mind is turning to mush being the end of the week...

Not at all, that's how I like to think of it (more or less) as well Sometimes I think of life as an integral too

I mean, strictly speaking, the 'update' function of a game is just a function that takes the game's state S to a new state S', given a simulation step time delta-t. It's very much a mathematical process

No craziness here...