Hi all

This is something that has been bugging me for a while.

I believe that for LT it will be impossible to generate 2 universes from the same seed that will be the same. I will now put forth why I believe that to be true and if not, can Josh please help me out with how it will actually work.

1. The seed will generate the Universe that you will be playing in. So if I create 2 games with the same seed the systems will look the same with the same ore in the asteroids and so forth.

2. The seed is not involved in history generation. So if I create 2 games with the same seed the factions will be different, Stations will be in different places and what is a hi security system in the one might be a pirate system in the other.

The reason I am bringing this up for discussion is that it appears to me that people are under the impression that the seed will determine the history as well. and that I can replay my game by just restarting with the same seed and as I understand it that will not be the case. So if you want to play the same game you will have to make a save at the start to use for a later play of the same game.

As I understand it, there could very well be multiple seeds.
One for universe generation, one for factions, one for ore distribution, and so on.

I'd like to think that history generation is depending on a seed + some randomizations.

Neandertal wrote:The reason I am bringing this up for discussion is that it appears to me that people are under the impression that the seed will determine the history as well. and that I can replay my game by just restarting with the same seed and as I understand it that will not be the case. So if you want to play the same game you will have to make a save at the start to use for a later play of the same game.

With pseudo-random number generators, the same seed will produce the same sequence of numbers. So as long as you only want to restart in the same universe, the same seed may be sufficient (depending on Josh's implementation). If there are several separate seeds as Katorone suggested, you could keep some things (mostly) constant by re-using their seeds, but leaving others to chance with a new seed.

In that sense, the seed(s) would be equivalent to the save at the start of the game. But after the game start, your actions will introduce new randomness because you will certainly not act exactly the same two times. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect. So if you want to resume from any time after you started, a saved game will be necessary.

This is exactly what i want josh to confirm. Will he be using a seed to determine the actions of the AI in history or will he actually be running a simulation?

If he is running a simulation as I understood then there can be no seed for history and the AI will be making decisions that will not be the same every time.

Katorone wrote: I'd like to think that history generation is depending on a seed + some randomizations.

In any case, randomizations would depend on a seed !

Neandertal wrote:This is exactly what i want josh to confirm. Will he be using a seed to determine the actions of the AI in history or will he actually be running a simulation?

If he is running a simulation as I understood then there can be no seed for history and the AI will be making decisions that will not be the same every time.

I think the seed makes the enviroment, and NPCs, with the same personalities and starting locations in the same enviroment will do the same decisions in the simulation every time, leading to the same result.

TL;DR: Same every time, but runs a simulation. Computers are deterministic.

Katorone is right, there are many different seeds. I will elaborate more on this at a later date, but it's one of the coolest things about universe generation in LT - the fact that you can assemble your own set of seeds to customize the universe (for example, you can take the 'raw materials' of one universe, the 'structure' of another, and the 'personalities' of a third and put them all together into a new universe!)

AI operations are controlled by an AI seed such that the behaviors are indeed deterministic. Whenever the AI needs to make choices, it is using deterministic, seed-based randomness in the same way that the procedural algorithms do.

The determinism lasts only up until the player enters the game. This means that, in theory, you will see the exact same universe & universe history given the same seeds each time you start the universe. But after that point, the universe will start to diverge based on the player's actions.

I love it... It opens soooo much potentiality based on "what if"... This could be a gameplay by itself (an emergent one !).

I'm so glad you are making this in such an open way, allowing people to have the experience they want with tools like these seeds and setting up generation parameters. It makes it so much cooler to be able to say, start in the same universe as a friend and see what happens differently. It truly will be endlessly replayable. I cannot wait for this game, you are doing amazing work!

So will we be able to choose our starting parameters for our first universe? Will there be a base selection of seeds to choose from? Or will we just have to jump fright into it and start collecting new seeds?

superspace wrote:So will we be able to choose our starting parameters for our first universe? Will there be a base selection of seeds to choose from? Or will we just have to jump fright into it and start collecting new seeds?

Why should you "collect" seeds? They are just numbers entered by the player, like in minecraft

Cornflakes_91 wrote:

superspace wrote:So will we be able to choose our starting parameters for our first universe? Will there be a base selection of seeds to choose from? Or will we just have to jump fright into it and start collecting new seeds?

Why should you "collect" seeds? They are just numbers entered by the player, like in minecraft

In Minecraft, you enter a seed, look around, save seed if it's interesting, repeat. It is collecting seeds, essentially.

Cornflakes_91 wrote:Why should you "collect" seeds? They are just numbers entered by the player, like in minecraft

I do hope it's possible to enter the seed to start a new universe. For example, I'd may like to a share a seed with my brother so we can explore the universe together. Alternatively, it could allow the community to challenge eachother in the same universe like some do in Spelunky (first to a million credits type of thing).

DynamixBoon wrote:

Cornflakes_91 wrote:Why should you "collect" seeds? They are just numbers entered by the player, like in minecraft

I do hope it's possible to enter the seed to start a new universe. For example, I'd may like to a share a seed with my brother so we can explore the universe together. Alternatively, it could allow the community to challenge eachother in the same universe like some do in Spelunky (first to a million credits type of thing).

josh would be quite a jerk if he included a seed functionality and does not expose it, and josh is by far no jerk ^^

Cornflakes_91 wrote:

DynamixBoon wrote:

Cornflakes_91 wrote:Why should you "collect" seeds? They are just numbers entered by the player, like in minecraft

I do hope it's possible to enter the seed to start a new universe. For example, I'd may like to a share a seed with my brother so we can explore the universe together. Alternatively, it could allow the community to challenge eachother in the same universe like some do in Spelunky (first to a million credits type of thing).

josh would be quite a jerk if he included a seed functionality and does not expose it, and josh is by far no jerk ^^

You kinda contradicted yourself there. You told me that it basically was a bad I idea to collect seeds yet you say it would be dumb to have a seed functionality without exposing it. The soul purpose of exposing it would be to collect it, and to share it, and in this case create more unique universes from a collection that you have acquired.

But I think you're awesome cornflakes!! its just that my question is pretty valid