ThymineC wrote:

DWMagus wrote:I always liked the idea of the wake field also affecting missiles to some degree.

This adds more strategy for carriers especially. Take down shields temporarily to launch fighters at the risk of lower defenses. Maybe the same effect when the shields pop; requires a little bit of 'charge up' time in order for the shield to come back online. This would also mean that the AI can't just zerg rush you at the beginning of a massive battle.

I do realize the cons to this, but just more food for thought. It's the old offense vs. defense argument.

If the interaction between H-fields are responsible for the wakefield effect and missiles are powered using H-field drives, then the wakefield effect should apply to them as well. Personally I would rather have missiles that have an accelerating flight model and rely on conventional thrusters, but this is a pro for having missiles rely on H-drives if it ends up that way.

What if the Electro Magnetic field induced by the H-drive always exercised a force in such a way that it wants to keep things that enter it from moving (somewhat similar to the fact that moving a magnet in an near a conductor will cause an electric current in the conductor, that will generate an magnetic field that counteracts the change you induced by moving the magnet), this would apply on all moving objects entering the H-drive field and the induced force would always point in the reversed direction of the speed vector, this slowing down everything that enters the field without the need for it to have an H-drive.

Cha0zz wrote:What if the Electro Magnetic field induced by the H-drive always exercised a force in such a way that it wants to keep things that enter it from moving (somewhat similar to the fact that moving a magnet in an near a conductor will cause an electric current in the conductor, that will generate an magnetic field that counteracts the change you induced by moving the magnet), this would apply on all moving objects entering the H-drive field and the induced force would always point in the reversed direction of the speed vector, this slowing down everything that enters the field without the need for it to have an H-drive.

What if the reason that all the planets and stars in LT are stationary is because the mysterious structure at the centre of the galaxy is really an ultra-powerful Heisenberg field generator that has been projecting an H-field around the whole galaxy for millenia?

This sounds more like shield tech than drive tech, though.

ThymineC wrote:

Cha0zz wrote:What if the Electro Magnetic field induced by the H-drive always exercised a force in such a way that it wants to keep things that enter it from moving (somewhat similar to the fact that moving a magnet in an near a conductor will cause an electric current in the conductor, that will generate an magnetic field that counteracts the change you induced by moving the magnet), this would apply on all moving objects entering the H-drive field and the induced force would always point in the reversed direction of the speed vector, this slowing down everything that enters the field without the need for it to have an H-drive.

What if the reason that all the planets and stars in LT are stationary is because the mysterious structure at the centre of the galaxy is really an ultra-powerful Heisenberg field generator that has been projecting an H-field around the whole galaxy for millenia?

Oh, I would like that a lot more than that they somehow altered the cosmological constants, sounds way more plausible :p .

This sounds more like shield tech than drive tech, though.

Does it really matter what causes the slowdown? It could be a force induced by the H-field, or a force induced by shields, it could even be a safety mechanism designed to slow particles in moving dust clouds down so they wouldn't inflict damage on the craft (the particles that are small enough to get trough the shields that is) by reducing their kinetic energy relative to the ship.

Cha0zz wrote:Does it really matter what causes the slowdown? It could be a force induced by the H-field, or a force induced by shields, it could even be a safety mechanism designed to slow particles in moving dust clouds down so they wouldn't inflict damage on the craft (the particles that are small enough to get trough the shields that is) by reducing their kinetic energy relative to the ship.

Technically speaking, shields operate by producing H-fields too.

Coming soon.

And um, it wouldn't have anything to do with slowing particles down, since the vessel isn't technically moving. The relative velocities between dust particles and a ship travelling using an H-drive would be pretty low.

ThymineC wrote:

Cha0zz wrote:Does it really matter what causes the slowdown? It could be a force induced by the H-field, or a force induced by shields, it could even be a safety mechanism designed to slow particles in moving dust clouds down so they wouldn't inflict damage on the craft (the particles that are small enough to get trough the shields that is) by reducing their kinetic energy relative to the ship.

Technically speaking, shields operate by producing H-fields too.

Does this mean you agree with the idea for a slowing down force, since I really dislike the idea of H-drive propelled missiles (except for maybe very large capital ship missiles).

Coming soon.

Oh god

The H-drive induced wake field would theoretically "grab" but not slow down any object without a H-drive.

This can of course be changed with enough technobabble .

And for the missile-type cruise distruptors, you just:
1. Get a powerful enough energy source (battery?)
2. Get a powerful enough field generator
3. Get an reaction engine (you could use the field generator too)
4. Get a thing to control it
5. Put them in a hull
6. Shoot the thing at an enemy
7. Destroy the enemy using slow weapons you couldn't hit with before.

A little point about a 'wake field' mechanic... As X:Rebirth showed, it should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be enabled for enemy ships. In XR you are easily able to tuck into a blind spot of a much larger ship and simply kill it with zero effort other than holding the trigger down, especially if you can destroy hardpoints.

Consider it a courtesy capital ships extend to a small ship so they don't splat them, not a fundamental property of how small ships interact with some shield or field on a big ship.

ThymineC wrote:

Cha0zz wrote:Does it really matter what causes the slowdown? It could be a force induced by the H-field, or a force induced by shields, it could even be a safety mechanism designed to slow particles in moving dust clouds down so they wouldn't inflict damage on the craft (the particles that are small enough to get trough the shields that is) by reducing their kinetic energy relative to the ship.

Technically speaking, shields operate by producing H-fields too.

Coming soon.

And um, it wouldn't have anything to do with slowing particles down, since the vessel isn't technically moving. The relative velocities between dust particles and a ship travelling using an H-drive would be pretty low.

Oh, I actually meant interstellar dust that is flung away by its star and is traveling at near relativistic speeds, no matter if you are moving or not, they could cause a lot of damage :p

Behemoth wrote:The H-drive induced wake field would theoretically "grab" but not slow down any object without a H-drive.

This can of course be changed with enough technobabble .

The force induced by an object moving in the H-field could be stronger if its speed was higher, initially this would mean that the deceleration caused by the force would be bigger than the acceleration caused by the truster of the missile/object, causing the object to slow down, when the object slows down, the force weakens, this means that the object will slow down until an equilibrium between the accelerating force caused by its truster and the decelerating force caused by the h-field is reached. This would effectively slow the object down while the maximum speed of the object would still depend on the power (force) that its engine can produce.

Cha0zz wrote:

Behemoth wrote:The H-drive induced wake field would theoretically "grab" but not slow down any object without a H-drive.

This can of course be changed with enough technobabble .

The force induced by an object moving in the H-field could be stronger if its speed was higher, initially this would mean that the deceleration caused by the force would be bigger than the acceleration caused by the truster of the missile/object, causing the object to slow down, when the object slows down, the force weakens, this means that the object will slow down until an equilibrium between the accelerating force caused by its truster and the decelerating force caused by the h-field is reached. This would effectively slow the object down while the maximum speed of the object would still depend on the power (force) that its engine can produce.

Exactly what I meant by technobabble .
I thought, that because the wake field actually wouldn't affect the momentum (I really hope I an using the word correctly) of the object, it wouldn't cause any deceleration at all. Few examples:

• Ramming towards an asteroid would cause the asteroid to start moving away from you, with the speed difference becoming less and less until contact. It wouldn't actually start moving at all.
• A missile trying to catch you from behind would appear to come towards you faster nearer it is to you, even when its actual speed wouldn't change.
• An object coming from the side of a moving ship would be carried with the wake until the ship gets far enough. It's still going to the same direction, and with the same speed, but it's off course, and not going to hit an object it would've hit without the ship.

Behemoth wrote: *snip*
Exactly what I meant by technobabble .
I thought, that because the wake field actually wouldn't affect the momentum (I really hope I an using the word correctly) of the object, it wouldn't cause any deceleration at all. Few examples:

1. Ramming towards an asteroid would cause the asteroid to start moving away from you, with the speed difference becoming less and less until contact. It wouldn't actually start moving at all.
2. A missile trying to catch you from behind would appear to come towards you faster nearer it is to you, even when its actual speed wouldn't change.
3. An object coming from the side of a moving ship would be carried with the wake until the ship gets far enough. It's still going to the same direction, and with the same speed, but it's off course, and not going to hit an object it would've hit without the ship.

The H-field would induce a force that counteracts every movement over time relative to the ship itself.

This would mean for:

1. The asteroid would indeed be pushed away slightly due to its position coming closer to the ship, this would cause a force away from the ship, however since asteroids are very heavy, this would be almost unnoticeable.
2. The missile coming from behind would have its position coming relative closer to the ship, again causing a force vector pointed away from the ship, this would mean that or the acceleration of the missile would decrease (if it hasn't yet reached the equilibrium mentioned in my previous post) or slow the missile down (until the equilibrium is reached).
3. an object coming from the side would come closer to the ship (lets say that the axis the object is flying on would be the x-axis), this would (again :p) cause a force vector pointed away from the ship, the effect would be similar to that of point 2. However, since the ship is moving, the relative position of the object compared to the ship would change, the H-field would try to counteract this by creating a force in the same direction that the ship is moving in, the missile would thus be dragged with the ship.
   This would mean that an object closing in on the ship would slowdown/lose acceleration and would be dragged with the ship.

I hope this clarifies more what I meant

CutterJohn wrote:A little point about a 'wake field' mechanic... As X:Rebirth showed, it should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be enabled for enemy ships. In XR you are easily able to tuck into a blind spot of a much larger ship and simply kill it with zero effort other than holding the trigger down, especially if you can destroy hardpoints.

Consider it a courtesy capital ships extend to a small ship so they don't splat them, not a fundamental property of how small ships interact with some shield or field on a big ship.

Josh has already stated that shields fit 'loosely' around ships. If you can find a blind spot as a fighter and get in under the enemy's shield, you've got free reign.

Second, if we start going down the route of "Only the player can do this and not the AI", that ends up becoming a very problematic ideology.

Cha0zz wrote:

Behemoth wrote: *snip*
I thought, that because the wake field actually wouldn't affect the momentum (I really hope I an using the word correctly) of the object, it wouldn't cause any deceleration at all.
*snip*

The H-field would induce a force that counteracts every movement over time relative to the ship itself.

*snip*

Sorry, I didn't notice your post about the slowdown before . We were simply using different systems.

Is the slowdown for relative, or absolute speed?

Behemoth wrote:

Cha0zz wrote:

Behemoth wrote: *snip*
I thought, that because the wake field actually wouldn't affect the momentum (I really hope I an using the word correctly) of the object, it wouldn't cause any deceleration at all.
*snip*

The H-field would induce a force that counteracts every movement over time relative to the ship itself.

*snip*

Sorry, I didn't notice your post about the slowdown before . We were simply using different systems.

Is the slowdown for relative, or absolute speed?

I would say relative to the ship that generates the H-field

DWMagus wrote: Josh has already stated that shields fit 'loosely' around ships. If you can find a blind spot as a fighter and get in under the enemy's shield, you've got free reign.

I'm fine with that, so long as it actually takes effort to stay in that blind spot, and the ship you are hiding from tries to get you out of it(or tries to ram you).

If I can simply hover there with literally zero control inputs, then no, that is awful gameplay.

In XR, it takes literally no skill to do this. The game just drags you along with the motions of the capital ship. I made a new game, and there just happened to be an enemy battleship there. I destroyed one of the most powerful ships in the game by simply sitting in a blind spot holding the trigger down, all with a starter ship and basic weapons.

That is what I'm warning against.

Second, if we start going down the route of "Only the player can do this and not the AI", that ends up becoming a very problematic ideology.

I think trying to treat the player and AI as equal in all cases is the problematic ideology, for the very simple fact that they aren't equal. The simple fact is I will be a much, much better pilot than any AI. And the AI will be a better aim than I could ever dream of. If you don't acknowledge these truths, the game will be flawed.