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Re: American Election 2020

#31
cuisinart8 wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:21 am
I guess Trump exploring ways to punish press outlets for reporting things he didn't want reported isn't infringing on free speech now, but private groups making it so people can't say slurs on the platforms that they own and allow other people to use is?
in addition to all the "fake news!" cries and calling news outlets the enemy of the people.... that sounds a lot like the stuff like some people here cried during the times of my grandparents...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 32065?s=20

cuisinart8 wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:21 am
If people want a more "free speech-y" alternative there's always Gab or something.
if you want really free speech, go disseminate your stuff on freenet or on some gnunet messaging.
built to be censorship resistant :D
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Re: American Election 2020

#32
cuisinart8 wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:21 am
I guess Trump exploring ways to punish press outlets for reporting things he didn't want reported isn't infringing on free speech now, but private groups making it so people can't say slurs on the platforms that they own and allow other people to use is?
Big social media like Twiter, Facebook and Youtube are many peoples only source of information now. If these groups ever want to influence the populous to do their bidding they would be hard to stop. This is my point. It's not just about big social media backing one party and censoring another. They may be private companies, but they also enjoy special legal protections. If they are going to start pushing specific ideas they like, and suppressing others, they can't have these protections. It's too much power in the hands of a couple people. Too many people are cool with it because currently they either help "their" candidate, or "their" social cause. What will happen when they decide to start suppressing something you care about?
cuisinart8 wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:21 am
If people want a more "free speech-y" alternative there's always Gab or something.

Not really. If your goal is to influence a large group of people the big tech giants are really the only way to go. This would be like if back in the 80's big TV networks refused to give one political party a voice, because well.. it's a private company so too bad. "If you want free speech just use ham radio or something". They aren't really options.
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:00 pm
cuisinart8 wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:21 am


I guess Trump exploring ways to punish press outlets for reporting things he didn't want reported isn't infringing on free speech now, but private groups making it so people can't say slurs on the platforms that they own and allow other people to use is?
in addition to all the "fake news!" cries and calling news outlets the enemy of the people.... that sounds a lot like the stuff like some people here cried during the times of my grandparents...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/sta ... 32065?s=20
Trump never tried to change laws to remove media he didn't like though. Yes, the whole "fake news" thing was a dumb move on his part.
In fact, if he was smart he would have tried to work with the press somewhat and perhaps they wouldn't have got their back up and did everything they could to push him out. My problem is that BOTH are wrong and lead to a path no sane person wants to go down.

The thing is, do you really think they will stop with Trump? It seems every day all the big social media push the bar just a little further. Once all other voices are pushed out and they control the masses they control everything.
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Re: American Election 2020

#34
Zanteogo wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:23 pm
Big social media like Twiter, Facebook and Youtube are many peoples only source of information now.
I'm sorry, but how are the bad choices of people the network's fault?
If you choose to get all your information from one private source, who are technically allowed to edit, remove and prioritise whatever they want on their platform, you are being stupid to begin with.

Also, you are failing to outline who would have what motivation to even orchestrate such a big evil conspiracy you are outlining, and why those disparate entities agree on their course of action.
You yell "they are a leftist conspiracy to manipulate your thoughts!" without outlining who or why.
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Re: American Election 2020

#35
Zanteogo wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:23 pm
Big social media like Twiter, Facebook and Youtube are many peoples only source of information now. If these groups ever want to influence the populous to do their bidding they would be hard to stop. This is my point. It's not just about big social media backing one party and censoring another. They may be private companies, but they also enjoy special legal protections. If they are going to start pushing specific ideas they like, and suppressing others, they can't have these protections. It's too much power in the hands of a couple people. Too many people are cool with it because currently they either help "their" candidate, or "their" social cause. What will happen when they decide to start suppressing something you care about?
This is hardly any different from actual TV news, for example. If you want liberal-slanted news, you watch MSNBC. If you want conservative-slanted news, you watch Fox or OANN. And if you read your news, you can read the Washington Post for liberal news or the Wall Street Journal for more conservative views. All of these networks or papers have a political slant and they all work to influence their audiences one way or another. They also have legal protections, and what they're doing is completely legal, just like with the tech companies.

I'll agree that the big social media companies are too big and could use a good shakeup, though. A few anti-trust investigations would go a long way.
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Re: American Election 2020

#36
Talvieno wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:33 pm
Zanteogo wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:23 pm
Trump never tried to change laws to remove media he didn't like though.
Well, that would be a good point... except he did.

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Saying he would like to do something if he had the power is different from having the actual power.. or actually doing it. Was it a smart thing to say on his part? No. I am not a big fan of Trump due to the stupid things he says. Saying and doing are different though. I agree.. it's not very presidential. That's not my point. If you give total control to a small group of people they will abuse it in the end. Right now it's to push one political party to victory, the next who knows?

Again, and I can't stress this enough.. my concern is not for the 2020 American election. I am not American. It's what will happen in the future now that this has been established as the new norm. At the very least we will have all political parties kissing the butts of big tech now. Great.
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:58 am
Zanteogo wrote:
Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:23 pm
Big social media like Twiter, Facebook and Youtube are many peoples only source of information now.
I'm sorry, but how are the bad choices of people the network's fault?
If you choose to get all your information from one private source, who are technically allowed to edit, remove and prioritise whatever they want on their platform, you are being stupid to begin with.
Stupid people still vote and still rally for change. These changes will affect you. Most people are "Joe 6 packs", they see surface level things and don't bother to look further. "Trump is a racist!" or "Joe is a commie!" They just take things as surface value and don't care to look further. Also, Twitter is not really allowed to censor beyond basic things. They enjoy legal protections that a publisher does not have. The idea is it allows the free exchange of ideas but they can't be held legally responsible for what users post. Now that Facebook, Twitter and Youtube are starting to act as publishers.. and not open forums, should they still have that protection?
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:58 am
Also, you are failing to outline who would have what motivation to even orchestrate such a big evil conspiracy you are outlining, and why those disparate entities agree on their course of action.
You yell "they are a leftist conspiracy to manipulate your thoughts!" without outlining who or why.
Big tech and the established powers are the who. They seek control of the people. If you control exactly what people see, they own you. Even if maybe you are smart enough to see past it or look for underground sources, most people won't. The mob rules in the end.
When I say they only allow left voices, I mean they allow leftist extreme ideas to flow freely. (something I am 100% cool with) Yet, are clamping down more and more on right wing voices. If you post on Twitter, for example,

"I am all for people living their lives as they see fit, but people who claim to identify as a cat maybe have an underlying mental issue and might want to seek help."

Not only will you get pig piled on by hundreds of blue checkmarks... your Tweet will probably get deleted and your account suspended for being a horrible Ailurophobic. Could even get doxed if they can figure out who you are. If you work in Hollywood you're now blacklisted. This is not an exaggeration at all.

The thing is, I really don't think the powers in charge give a damn about left wing issues. They just know it's an effective tool to weaponize the people.
cuisinart8 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:21 pm
This is hardly any different from actual TV news, for example. If you want liberal-slanted news, you watch MSNBC. If you want conservative-slanted news, you watch Fox or OANN. And if you read your news, you can read the Washington Post for liberal news or the Wall Street Journal for more conservative views. All of these networks or papers have a political slant and they all work to influence their audiences one way or another. They also have legal protections, and what they're doing is completely legal, just like with the tech companies.

I'll agree that the big social media companies are too big and could use a good shakeup, though. A few anti-trust investigations would go a long way.
It looks like Fox just decided to drink the kool-aid and join the club. They, like all other mainstreamers, have started to cut the president and his spokespersons off during their news conferences and are refusing to let them speak to the people. (as in they are cutting the TV feed while they are still talking)
If a publisher presents false information they can be sued for slander if it causes you harm. However, big tech is afforded special protections with the idea that they will mostly allow the free flow of ideas. They clearly no longer do this. If they want to act as publishers, then they need to be treated as such.
Also, even if something is legal, doesn't always make it right.
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Re: American Election 2020

#37
Zanteogo wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:33 pm
Saying he would like to do something if he had the power is different from having the actual power.. or actually doing it. Was it a smart thing to say on his part? No. I am not a big fan of Trump due to the stupid things he says. Saying and doing are different though. I agree.. it's not very presidential. That's not my point. If you give total control to a small group of people they will abuse it in the end. Right now it's to push one political party to victory, the next who knows?
yes, and it speaks greatly about how much he thinks about freedom of speech.
"if i could get away with it i'd shut you down right now"
Zanteogo wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:33 pm
Big tech and the established powers are the who. They seek control of the people. If you control exactly what people see, they own you.
The established powers? Like, for example, one of the two political parties in the US? Who, according to you, just lost the election because of your conspiracy?

and why would a bunch of competitors coordinate on that matter?
they "own you" either way if they control your feed, no obvious coloration necessary.
in fact by agreeing they probably lose customers because of people now having the choice of multiple platforms to get their dripfeed.

what would they have to gain by alieninating ~40% of the US populace?
Zanteogo wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:33 pm

The thing is, I really don't think the powers in charge give a damn about left wing issues. They just know it's an effective tool to weaponize the people.
as opposed to the actual weaponisation of right wingers...?
Zanteogo wrote: Yet, are clamping down more and more on right wing voices. If you post on Twitter, for example,

"I am all for people living their lives as they see fit, but people who claim to identify as a cat maybe have an underlying mental issue and might want to seek help."

Not only will you get pig piled on by hundreds of blue checkmarks... your Tweet will probably get deleted and your account suspended for being a horrible Ailurophobic. Could even get doxed if they can figure out who you are. If you work in Hollywood you're now blacklisted. This is not an exaggeration at all.

Trivially disproven

https://twitter.com/TRAPTOFFICIAL/statu ... 15969?s=20
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Re: American Election 2020

#38
Zanteogo wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:33 pm
It looks like Fox just decided to drink the kool-aid and join the club. They, like all other mainstreamers, have started to cut the president and his spokespersons off during their news conferences and are refusing to let them speak to the people. (as in they are cutting the TV feed while they are still talking)
If a publisher presents false information they can be sued for slander if it causes you harm. However, big tech is afforded special protections with the idea that they will mostly allow the free flow of ideas. They clearly no longer do this. If they want to act as publishers, then they need to be treated as such.
Also, even if something is legal, doesn't always make it right.
Trump isn't useful to Fox's goals anymore since he lost, and moreso, their obviously biased support of him in the past often turned away people who weren't already watching Fox for news and lost them ad money. They'll hitch their wagon to whoever the GOP nominates next, hope they're less divisive, and call it a day. The reason most news corporations are cutting admin people off now is because they're blatantly lying and the networks are fact-checking them, and they don't need to worry about pleasing the admin anymore since it won't be in power for long.

Also, there's already been proposals to make social media companies responsible for the content on their platforms. In fact, part of why they're being stricter now is because of that. They faced so much outcry over allowing misinformation and fake news to spread in the previous election that they're now trying to stem it to keep people and the government on their side. If they're made responsible for all content posted on their platforms, they'll quickly begin censoring things even moreso than now, so your wish for them to be treated like that seems to fly in the face of your criticisms of them for censoring things even as little as they do now.
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