Lovely log Josh! Glad everything is looking up.
Where's Adam been? I really enjoyed his logs..
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:06 am
#17
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
Fantastic post, Josh.
For what it's worth, I think your high level cost/benefit analysis regarding making LT moddable is sound. This isn't a sunk-cost fallacy; this is a responsible assessment of whether modding is right for this game. You concluded "yes." I believe that conclusion is the correct one, and I specifically believe it for exactly the reasons you gave.
If proceduralism is what will make a game of LT feel like a living world, moddability is what will enable LT to be a living game. It's a good fit.
One other thing:
Noted, and very much appreciated. This, and a reasonable data definition grammar, are about as far as you can go technically to simplify modding LT.
With that, and a basic "Modding LT" reference guide, the rest is up to us. Expecting someone who wants to mod LT to make the effort to learn Lua and the LT-specific constructs -- what they are, what they mean, and how to use them -- is entirely reasonable.
This is going to be fun.
For what it's worth, I think your high level cost/benefit analysis regarding making LT moddable is sound. This isn't a sunk-cost fallacy; this is a responsible assessment of whether modding is right for this game. You concluded "yes." I believe that conclusion is the correct one, and I specifically believe it for exactly the reasons you gave.
If proceduralism is what will make a game of LT feel like a living world, moddability is what will enable LT to be a living game. It's a good fit.
One other thing:
JoshParnell wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:45 pmAll the 'bigger picture' elements that dictate when, where, and how a particular function runs are specified in the data section ... Hence, much of the need for a modder to 'worry about' the internal mechanisms used to make LT performant (you know, the ones I talk about in pretty much every devlog ever?) is alleviated. Granted, they still exist and may still be interacted with at the code level, but for the majority of gameplay functionality, doing so should be unnecessary.
Noted, and very much appreciated. This, and a reasonable data definition grammar, are about as far as you can go technically to simplify modding LT.
With that, and a basic "Modding LT" reference guide, the rest is up to us. Expecting someone who wants to mod LT to make the effort to learn Lua and the LT-specific constructs -- what they are, what they mean, and how to use them -- is entirely reasonable.
This is going to be fun.
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 am
#18
Also, I notice you did not specify that we couldn't have early access that would allow us to start creating things that WON'T be included in the 1.0 release... Loophole...
Release version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?
Though from the way it has been described, I guess there won't be a large Lua code base to play around with except for a brief period of time when all the gameplay is being generated at light speed.
All of this is futile. I don't have the honor of being a backer.
Now I feel sad
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
Why Tal?! Why couldn't you have just been WRONG about this?!LindseyReid wrote: ↑Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:54 pmYou are correct that the Lua will be released, and the engine and C++ will be secret; however, +1 to Tal's response: only Procedural Reality developers (ie me, Adam, and Josh) will contribute to 1.0 release code.
The community can use whatever tools y'all want for collaborating on mods with each other. ^^
Also, I notice you did not specify that we couldn't have early access that would allow us to start creating things that WON'T be included in the 1.0 release... Loophole...
Release version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?
Though from the way it has been described, I guess there won't be a large Lua code base to play around with except for a brief period of time when all the gameplay is being generated at light speed.
All of this is futile. I don't have the honor of being a backer.
Now I feel sad
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:49 pm
#19
if i can write code that runs in it, i can share that code
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
... how would you prevent people from sharing code..?MyNameWuzTaken wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 amRelease version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?
if i can write code that runs in it, i can share that code
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:10 pm
#20
The problem isn't the sharing of the Lua code, its the dev team having to work around the contributions of non dev members when building the 1.0 version. So what I meant was people wouldn't be contributing to source, where source is 1.0 Lua code.
Edit:
Am I correct in that what we are basically getting in an engine is a Lua compiler based almost entirely on a previous C++ Compiler. The main loop will be in C++ and will be inaccessible, but we will have an API so we can mod in LUA. So its safe to release said compiler as long as we can't look in the box, and we can code, compile and run.
1.0 is this and a bunch of LUA script that works with the original vision. But for the adventurous types, you don't technically need a completed Lua script. You just need the API to play with.
Am I way wrong?
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
I just meant not adding it to the initial codebase. There isn't really a way from preventing people sharing code, but you don't have to incorporate changes into the 1.0 source, or make any kind of conviences for it. Basically, people are free to mod to their hearts content, but if any changes prior to 1.0 break that mod for them or anyone else, then tough luck.Cornflakes_91 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:49 pm... how would you prevent people from sharing code..?MyNameWuzTaken wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 amRelease version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?
if i can write code that runs in it, i can share that code
The problem isn't the sharing of the Lua code, its the dev team having to work around the contributions of non dev members when building the 1.0 version. So what I meant was people wouldn't be contributing to source, where source is 1.0 Lua code.
Edit:
Am I correct in that what we are basically getting in an engine is a Lua compiler based almost entirely on a previous C++ Compiler. The main loop will be in C++ and will be inaccessible, but we will have an API so we can mod in LUA. So its safe to release said compiler as long as we can't look in the box, and we can code, compile and run.
1.0 is this and a bunch of LUA script that works with the original vision. But for the adventurous types, you don't technically need a completed Lua script. You just need the API to play with.
Am I way wrong?
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:18 pm
#21
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
Still working hard daily in the Procedural Reality offices, just not posting regularly ^^
[Edited] Beta will be moddable.MyNameWuzTaken wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:10 pmI just meant not adding it to the initial codebase. There isn't really a way from preventing people sharing code, but you don't have to incorporate changes into the 1.0 source, or make any kind of conviences for it. Basically, people are free to mod to their hearts content, but if any changes prior to 1.0 break that mod for them or anyone else, then tough luck.Cornflakes_91 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:49 pm... how would you prevent people from sharing code..?MyNameWuzTaken wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 amRelease version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?
if i can write code that runs in it, i can share that code
The problem isn't the sharing of the Lua code, its the dev team having to work around the contributions of non dev members when building the 1.0 version. So what I meant was people wouldn't be contributing to source, where source is 1.0 Lua code.
Edit:
Am I correct in that what we are basically getting in an engine is a Lua compiler based almost entirely on a previous C++ Compiler. The main loop will be in C++ and will be inaccessible, but we will have an API so we can mod in LUA. So its safe to release said compiler as long as we can't look in the box, and we can code, compile and run.
1.0 is this and a bunch of LUA script that works with the original vision. But for the adventurous types, you don't technically need a completed Lua script. You just need the API to play with.
Am I way wrong?
Ship Inspiration Pinterest!! (send me stuff)
"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:25 pm
#22
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
Thats understandable, but that makes me curious just what the Closed Beta will be like, if youre going to be shipping out the whole game as 1.0... Presumably there would be a time frame where beta is released to the KS backers before it goes on sale, right?We can't release any runnable LT code without essentially releasing the whole game, which is... what 1.0 release is for. When the 1.0 version of the game is done :p And as Cornflakes pointed out, if we did that even for only a small portion of people, we couldn't prevent people from sharing the game.
Again, to be extremely clear: there will be no code released to the public before 1.0 is released. Not to backers or anybody else. This is not going to change.
Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:29 pm
#23
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
[Edited] Beta will be moddable.Hyperion wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:25 pmThats understandable, but that makes me curious just what the Closed Beta will be like, if youre going to be shipping out the whole game as 1.0... Presumably there would be a time frame where beta is released to the KS backers before it goes on sale, right?We can't release any runnable LT code without essentially releasing the whole game, which is... what 1.0 release is for. When the 1.0 version of the game is done :p And as Cornflakes pointed out, if we did that even for only a small portion of people, we couldn't prevent people from sharing the game.
Again, to be extremely clear: there will be no code released to the public before 1.0 is released. Not to backers or anybody else. This is not going to change.
Ship Inspiration Pinterest!! (send me stuff)
"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:31 pm
#24
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
...are you sure? Josh always told me differently.LindseyReid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:29 pmYes, good point. I believe we are planning on doing a closed beta. It won't be in moddable form, however.
Have a question? Send me a PM! || I have a Patreon page up for REKT now! || People talking in IRC over the past two hours:
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:34 pm
#25
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
im wondering how you want to do that when the majority of the actual gameplay is in LUA....
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:35 pm
#26
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
Sorry guys, miscommunication. Tal is always right :p Beta will be moddable, but we will not integrate user mods into 1.0. MyNameWuzTaken & Cornflakes, please forgive me X0
Ship Inspiration Pinterest!! (send me stuff)
"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 pm
#27
Haha sorry if I caused a problem Lindsey.
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
Integrating user mods into LT 2.0 Confirmed!LindseyReid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:35 pmSorry guys, miscommunication. Tal is always right :p Beta will be moddable, but we will not integrate user mods into 1.0. MyNameWuzTaken & Cornflakes, please forgive me X0
Haha sorry if I caused a problem Lindsey.
Post
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:58 pm
#28
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
You did not. Thank you for being chill about my slip-up XDMyNameWuzTaken wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 pmIntegrating user mods into LT 2.0 Confirmed!LindseyReid wrote: ↑Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:35 pmSorry guys, miscommunication. Tal is always right :p Beta will be moddable, but we will not integrate user mods into 1.0. MyNameWuzTaken & Cornflakes, please forgive me X0
Haha sorry if I caused a problem Lindsey.
Ship Inspiration Pinterest!! (send me stuff)
"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
Post
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:49 am
#30
Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017
I've just returned from a few days away from my reclusive surroundings to find you had posted a dev log, Josh. By far my favourite part of this post was "Side-Soliloquy: Why So Much Concern for Moddability?" The hidden part was a joy to read!
Thanks for some inspiring stuff!
Thanks for some inspiring stuff!