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Is it fair to open pre-orders in exchange for offering backer refunds to those who want out?

Yes, allowing backers who've lost confidence in the project to pull out is worth breaking the principle of "no more funding."
Total votes: 24 (27%)
No, sticking to the principle of "no more funding" is important, just gently remind backers that they're not entitled to a refund unless the project is dead / ultimately does not deliver on promises.
Total votes: 65 (73%)
Total votes: 89
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#16
I think taking pre-orders won't actually help, because if (for any reason) the game still isn't out in 2 years, we'll be right back here, just with a different user base.
JFSOCC wrote:As for refunds, I disagree with this ruling, any money spent on a crowdfunding project is a donation imo. I've backed more than one project that hasn't made it, and I think that this is a normal investment risk.
The problem with this idea is that not everyone believes that. When I pledged, I did so with this in mind.
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#19
Forgot I wanted to add this.

It's the age-old adage of;

"You can't please all the people all the time"

It just happens to be that those who complain usually have the loudest voice even if they may not be the majority. Try not to let it get under your skin. ;)
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#20
DWMagus wrote:Forgot I wanted to add this.

It's the age-old adage of;

"You can't please all the people all the time"

It just happens to be that those who complain usually have the loudest voice even if they may not be the majority. Try not to let it get under your skin. ;)
Very, very true. You'd think after three years I'd have a better tolerance for that. And I guess I do.

But what can I say, I'm just too caring of a person :ghost: :roll:
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#21
I'm on the fence, but leaning towards option 2. I don't think the ruling (if it's the one in Washington state you're talking about) is relevant, since that was a case of fraud, and one would have a hard time proving that LT is some kind of fraud.

However, the following opinion:
As for refunds, I disagree with this ruling, any money spent on a crowdfunding project is a donation imo.
is probably incorrect. It might be your opinion that money given to a kickstarter is a donation, but it is highly unlikely.

Another issue is here, from the above link:
Few would argue that a farmer who sells wheat still growing in his fields has a legal obligation to deliver the ripened crop to his buyer when ready. In the same way, a software developer promising to deliver a finished product is under a similar obligation. Telling your buyer that you didn’t realize how much work it would take or deciding to develop something else mid-season hardly relieves you of your duty under the law.
More to the point,
While Kickstarter explains, albeit briefly, that their service is not a traditional storefront for people to sell currently-available goods and that the agreement between a campaigner and backer is contractual, they fail to disclose in detail that the sale of future goods, including those being pitched in Kickstarter campaigns, is wrapped in binding and enforceable law.
My point is: Just because I believe Kickstarter supporters don't deserve any kind of accountability from the developer (and I don't believe this, since the money involved is not donations) doesn't mean that the law sees it that way. This is dangerous because if some disgruntled backer wants their money back and is refused the return of funds, they may be legally justified in taking action.

...but I don't think that's very likely, though of course I'm Not A Lawyer.

We can have whatever opinions we want, but this is a case where some opinions may be genuinely wrong.
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#22
No pre-orders!

I think that if we put all the pros and cons on the balance the second option wins. But the main one, for me, is the "stick with your beliefs" one. We trust you, Josh, and as much as the most of us would throw a lot of money in the LT account, if needed, you should stick to your original plan to the end. Because that's the thing: the end is coming and we all know it.

:) :thumbup:
I have been - and always shall be - your friend.
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#23
As someone who missed the kickstarter, and has been anxious to purchase this game for a couple of years now...

I'd have to say, if you started taking pre-orders and offering refunds at the present time, my suspicion is that it would have the exact opposite effect that you are aiming for. In other words, I think there will be more negative (than positive) fallout, and it would create more problems and contribute to your angst about the topic, rather than alleviate it.

I think getting your KS update up, and feeling out the overall vibe of your backers after they have some time to digest it, is your first and most important step.

After that... If a few folks wanted refunds, then maybe you can take it on a "case by case". Ask them to contact you through xyz, and have a conversation.

If by some chance, a lot of people are screaming "refund" after you post your update... then, I guess you better get to work getting LT to a playable state :)

I think you'll be fine, man. Just keep your eye on the target, and let folks know that you are working... Heck, even a selfie with your monitor photobombing you in the background every now and then would probably go a long way for a lot of folks. They get to see "Hey, Josh is kicking ass, hard at work", without you having to devote man hours to "keeping folks updated" with long ass devlogs, etc.

As long as folks see you are present and doing work (even if not posting lengthy diary entries) you will be FINE.
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#26
After careful consideration, I voted "no," but I think I'd like to qualify that response.

1. Although I backed this project, I wouldn't feel that my (small) contribution was lessened in any way by taking on additional funding from individuals. In other words, I didn't vote "no" out of any sense of entitlement as an original KS backer.

2. I voted "no" because I'm convinced that legal exposure for Josh is reduced to virtually zero if he (or an authorized designee) provides visible and reasonably frequent project updates. Just showing up on the forum to say "hi, still working" has great value.

What these mean is that I don't think seeking more funding would be wrong; I think it can be made unnecessary by interaction with backers.

That said, I'm not the one who has the legal/financial risk here. Regardless of a few responses to a poll, if Josh decides that allowing pre-ordering is a necessary bulwark against possible legal actions, I will support him 100%.

Just please: no exclusive in-game rewards for different pre-order packages. ;)
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#27
Hi

EDIT [This is an old topic, but perhaps relevant.] ignore - can't read dates.

You didn't change your model then and I recommend you don't change your model now.
I never pledged, because I missed it's deadline... but I would like to and have not been able for a while.

Perhaps now, with a renewed vitality in the project those that wish could invest in the game somehow ... and to be clear I don't mean a charity donation... pre-order makes sense once you see the finishing line in sight... may also give you some last minute motivation :-)

I would also say that from a legal perspective you share nothing in common with Star Citezen lol and had I backed with £15/$20 it would still have been worth the 20 or so vids you put out :-)

-LC-
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#28
Thanks again all for the feedback. I think you've all seen the issue in a light that I couldn't see it in my frenzy. You're all right -- back refunds is not the way to go, and we don't need pre-orders, especially not before beta.

As for the next update, copied from the 'Golden Days' thread:
JoshParnell wrote:Quick update on the update: I know I said I wasn't leaving today until I finished it, but I've been writing and preparing since 8AM and I still have about half of it left to write (yes, this is going to be a lot of text (but also two images galleries!)). So I'm going to switch back over to code for the rest of the day and finish it tomorrow. I haven't coded at all today and it makes me sad :cry:

So KS update comes out tomorrow. SERIOUSLY. :angel:
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: Backer Refunds & Pre-Orders -- Your Thoughts?

#29
There is always the two-phase beta option.

Have a month long closed beta exclusively for backers. Then, you offer a week long open beta for people who missed the kickstarter, but still want to buy the game in advance.
We noticed that this thread got a little side-tracked into a conversation about eating spaghetti with a spoon. We do enjoy our fair share of italian food, but please remember to keep discussion on-topic when posting on the forums.

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