Post
Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:26 pm
#1
Re: The End
Thanks for the update, its a pity it didn't work out. When will you be issuing refunds to backers?
Considering the fact that he said he has exhausted his own personal funds, I think you may have a bit of a wait ahead of you, especially for $200,000. If you'd like, you can PM me and I'll discuss it with you.
Really, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along.
I assumed he was joking.charnode wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:29 pmReally, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along.
"Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."charnode wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:29 pmReally, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along.
Except that wasnt in the clauses when LT was funded.jd101 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:40 am"Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."charnode wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:29 pmReally, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along.
He made copies of the game his reward tiers, if he can't provide those rewards he has to refund the backers.
He can't just take people's money and run he has legal and moral commitments to fullfill. I think people have been very patient given he's 4 years over schedule as it is.
It's not unreasonable its one of the safeguards in Kickstarter. for example if the code he has developed has any value then sell it for whatever he can get and use that to partially refund people as much as he can. along with any equipment he used to make the game, and any other assets etc and just refund people as much as he can, that's the decent thing to do.Black--Snow wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:54 amI assumed he was joking.charnode wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:29 pmReally, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along.
It's such an out there suggestion, it just doesn't really make sense to be serious.
Actually no the T&Cs pre 2014 were;Cornflakes_91 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:43 amExcept that wasnt in the clauses when LT was funded.jd101 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:40 am"Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."charnode wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:29 pm
Really, dude? People have not gotten back their money for way less effort. Welcome to Kickstarter. You back, your risk. I'm convinced showing a serious effort to bring about the product has been made is quite easy on this one, if it wasn't obvious all along.
He made copies of the game his reward tiers, if he can't provide those rewards he has to refund the backers.
He can't just take people's money and run he has legal and moral commitments to fullfill. I think people have been very patient given he's 4 years over schedule as it is.
Only a "reasonable effort" clause, and we are long past that
Umm, OK and how exactly is he supposed to do that given that he's used the money over the past 6 years to fund development of a failed project?jd101 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:49 amActually no the T&Cs pre 2014 were;
"Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
Who mentioned suing anyone? You americans are such litigious people and quite toxic not sure you need to start attacking people just because they ask a question. Also you automatically assume everyone is american and that american law will apply, which is unconsciously bigoted at best.DWMagus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:32 pmRefunds?
You actually expect a refund on a project that has no money, and has done pretty much everything it can to be transparent.
Okay, let me stop laughing and actually tackle this from a more 'serious' standpoint since apparently the idea that "No money" means "I can invest with absolutely no risk" for those entitled plebians.
First, there's the fact that in order to actually get any sort of refund, you'll have to file a lawsuit. Now since Kickstarter absolves themselves of all sorts of responsibility for completionist of the project, it means you'll have the file the lawsuit on your own. Yes, US civil laws allow a lawsuit to be filed for as little as $20, but that doesn't take into court costs and/or lawyer costs if you're not representing yourself. Of course you can always file a class-action lawsuit, but that is under the pretense that the entire 'class' is in on the lawsuit--considering how accommodating 99% of the backers are, this would be a hard sell, so let's ignore that option as not feasible.
I'm also going to assume you're representing yourself because if you're not, you're already spending quite a bit on lawyers fees which means anything less than a large backing would already be washed away.
Second, let's say regardless of which way you go (lawyer or self-representation), you still have to convince a judge (or jury) that the refund is not just valid, but can feasibly be repaid. While Kickstarter does have clear-cut terms, there are far too many precedents where Judges have been lenient, or have thrown out cases in general -- especially when the defendant is clearly able to show that 1) He meant no harm, 2) No fraud was committed, or 3) Isn't able to easily pay (under the whole undue financial burden clauses that most judges use).
But for a moment, let's say you've not only backed at a large enough amount that you'll get money back, but you've also convinced a judge to rule in your favor, there's still one more piece;
And that is the fact the game was developed under a business. Not Josh Parnell personally, but a business. Therefore, he can easily (even well after the lawsuit is filed) say he's filing for bankruptcy and the case will be thrown out for the most part, and if it doesn't, it means no financial claim can be made against the business, except for maybe business assets (but not IP, as that gets into trademark law and the USPTO explicitly defines patents as not technically business assets at this level).
Can you still win though? Sure. If you really feel so wronged, so personally attacked by the lack of a product or your money back, you can pursue this, but be aware that this would by no means be short, and the cards are *heavily* stacked against you in recouping anything.
This doesn't even mention the fact that if he really wanted to, the defendant can easily counter-file by simply going with the idea that "Kickstarter is not a guarantee". Without even involving KS, there are far more arguments for "Your pledge is not a guarantee" and most judges will rule in that favor regardless of the terms. The terms KS puts up on their website is to protect them, not either party involved. This is shown NUMEROUS times by simply searching "Refunds from Kickstarter" or similar.
Of course, this is also why some devs cave and just issue refunds because they no longer have the time or energy to deal with it.
The refund question *is* still valid though. This forum, while associated with the game, is not really an associated method for the kickstarter. As such, reaching out on the forums only showcases being petty. If you *really* are serious about getting a refund instead of being an asshat, contact him via Kickstarter and the Kickstarter methods rather than the forum community. You'll get further there. Of course, you'd get even further by nice about it. Here, you could get a ban by a rogue mod just for the hell of it and since this isn't an official forum represented by the backing pledge, there is no reason why someone should unban (not saying it'll happen, just saying this is not an 'official' channel for requesting such actions regarding Kickstarter -- hell, even an associated email to KS would be more official than this forum).
But then again, maybe you've had luck before on getting refunds from small indie developers that have shown good intention and are broke.
(I am not a lawyer, but don't let that deter you. I've been working in the courts system for 10+ years and these are my observations)
Sooo... a couple of proven fraudsters and obvious disregard to backers is comparable to a case where the dev worked for six years with regular updates and lots of transparency on what he spent the money?jd101 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:13 pmAlso not to dispute your knowledge of US law but I took your advice and googled it you might be interested in this top result.
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/failed-kickst ... se-1505864
Instead of being consciously bigoted and attacking every single american?
Ah, a non-American. Suddenly things make a lot more sense (not sarcastic).jd101 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:13 pmWho mentioned suing anyone? You americans are such litigious people and quite toxic not sure you need to start attacking people just because they ask a question. Also you automatically assume everyone is american and that american law will apply, which is unconsciously bigoted at best.
Fair enough. Since that is the case, I will give you a very sincere answer.Not being American I was polite and asked a question before beginning any formal complaint process through kickstarter etc.
Yes, this is true. Unfortunately, this is also via the route of 'suing'. Once again, in the US, even to claim assets that a business had (outside of intellectual property -- long story), you have to file a lawsuit in which it boils down to suing. Now, if this is the route that deemed the best method, all his assets would be pooled, given a monetary value, and then that value would be doled out based on the percentage the claimants had backed in the original pledge. Say Josh only had $5000 worth of assets, money, etc left. Say you donated as much as $2000 to the KS (Or for the sake of numbers, 1%). This means that you would be entitled to 1% of the remaining assets, or about $50 in this case.A company will have assets that can be sold to reimburse backers as much as they can be. There will be books to log how the money was spent and due dilligence to account that it was all spent correctly on the project.
I don't think you actually read the article. This one keeps coming up multiple times in the KS circles, as well as the court system. The reason this one went through and not thrown out, was because there was 1) Enough cause to determine that the project creator had deceived their backers and 2) It was also shown that the money didn't go towards the project and mostly on himself.Also not to dispute your knowledge of US law but I took your advice and googled it you might be interested in this top result.
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/failed-kickst ... se-1505864
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