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Re: Differences between universes?

#17
Henrique Vignon wrote:I would imagine that for it to start becoming really repetitive you would have to have spent a considerable amount of time with the game, like 50+ hours, and in that case I would say you already got your money's worth out of it no?
hmmm 50+ hours is about the least amount of time ive spent on any game i think. for instance in phantasy star on just 1 character i think ive gotten (loads game because memory fails me) 217 hours of game-play logged. and that game literally has 4 levels to pick from (a forest a cave a mine and a ruined city) this game has such a wider range of possibility that i dont think anyone has need fear it getting old before we see works on a LT2 or similar expansion.
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Differences between universes?

#18
I think the point here is that if we assume Josh's algorithms include a number of constants and/or boundaries, it ought to be possible to make these values a function of the universe seed.

Example:
let's say the algorithm that determines the size of an asteroid is something really basic like: size = r1^2.1 - r2^1.2 + 100 where r1 and r2 are pseudorandom inputs derived from the seed. The game uses this to describe the size of all the asteroids in the universe, so when you fly into a new sector the algorithm describes the sizes of all asteroids you find there. The point here is that if this is Josh's existing algorithm, then there's a few constants in there that affect the statistical variation that could be altered, so that in your next universe there are generally fewer asteroids found but they border on the size of moons. Or they're all yellow.

Personally I'd like to see this, but as an extra option: i.e. default behaviour is to use Josh's recommended constants for universes, but optionally you can have them linked to the universe's seed for something more unpredictable.
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Re: Differences between universes?

#19
He already said that while "real" modding is not on the table, externalising specific constants, that are used in his equations, is definitely possible.
After all, not having to do a completely new build just to test a new number saves time.
The real problem is documenting all of them. Coders hate doing that. =P
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Differences between universes?

#20
Hiya,

I think the question, which I am I also interested in is....

Why would I start up a new universe, instead of just going to an unexplored section of my current universe?

If I wanted a 'new universe', why not just abandon everything I've built, take a starting ship, and fly into unexplored space for a week. Then, if I wanted to go back, I could just turn around and do so.
Since it's infinite, how would a 'new universe' be different from an unexplored region of the old universe?

:- D avid
(Grats on a very successful kickstarter by the way.)
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Re: Differences between universes?

#21
Pryllin wrote:Hiya,

I think the question, which I am I also interested in is....

Why would I start up a new universe, instead of just going to an unexplored section of my current universe?

If I wanted a 'new universe', why not just abandon everything I've built, take a starting ship, and fly into unexplored space for a week. Then, if I wanted to go back, I could just turn around and do so.
Since it's infinite, how would a 'new universe' be different from an unexplored region of the old universe?

:- D avid
(Grats on a very successful kickstarter by the way.)
Excellent question! And one that I've thought about myself. I believe that some of the variables used in the PCG algorithms will be tied to the seed of this universe. From this, we may see distinct properties emerge in certain universes. For example, maybe you notice that a certain universe tends to be very dark, or that the asteroids in this universe tend to be a bit sharper than in another.

Ultimately, it won't make that much of a difference whether you start a new game or ship out to a new sector of space, but I do think that there will be enough factors tied to the universe seed to allow you to notice the difference!
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: Differences between universes?

#22
if any of you have experience with other procedurally generated games (in my case Minecraft) then you might know the feeling of spamming seeds just to see what you get upon spawning. the sheer variation in the generation can lead to some spectacular inspiration just in itself.
If I've rambled and gone off topic im sorry but i tend to be long winded as you might notice if you stumble across my other post XD. thanks for reading.
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Re: Differences between universes?

#23
I think the answer to your question though, is that some people will more than likely want to just 'pick up and go'. There is nothing stopping you from taking a starter ship and setting your heading towards a distance star.

To each there own. There is no wrong way to eat a reese's afterall.
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Differences between universes?

#24
Might be a bit strange but I really like the idea that there is really only ONE Limit Theory Universe, in fact there is only one Limit Theory galaxy. That in fact each distinct "seed" is some sort of a hash of the starting point coordinates within a single galaxy. Galaxies are HUGE so the number of star systems you encounter in a given seed is so small that even if you play thousands of games with thousands of stars in each you won't get to a number that unbelievable for a single galaxy.
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Re: Differences between universes?

#25
Asmodai wrote:Might be a bit strange but I really like the idea that there is really only ONE Limit Theory Universe, in fact there is only one Limit Theory galaxy. That in fact each distinct "seed" is some sort of a hash of the starting point coordinates within a single galaxy. Galaxies are HUGE so the number of star systems you encounter in a given seed is so small that even if you play thousands of games with thousands of stars in each you won't get to a number that unbelievable for a single galaxy.
Theoretically in an infinite universe you could encounter a piece of any other universe, it's not likely at all, but It could happen, think of the monkeys eventually writing Shakespeare's works http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
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Re: Differences between universes?

#26
Dadalos wrote:if any of you have experience with other procedurally generated games (in my case Minecraft) then you might know the feeling of spamming seeds just to see what you get upon spawning. the sheer variation in the generation can lead to some spectacular inspiration just in itself.
In that vein, I'd like to see the starting location be essentially fixed between seeds, to allow that sort of gameplay to happen (find cool seed, send to friend, friend is also able to see content in cool seed without being a billion light years away)
MrFrisB wrote:
Asmodai wrote:Might be a bit strange but I really like the idea that there is really only ONE Limit Theory Universe, in fact there is only one Limit Theory galaxy. That in fact each distinct "seed" is some sort of a hash of the starting point coordinates within a single galaxy. Galaxies are HUGE so the number of star systems you encounter in a given seed is so small that even if you play thousands of games with thousands of stars in each you won't get to a number that unbelievable for a single galaxy.
Theoretically in an infinite universe you could encounter a piece of any other universe, it's not likely at all, but It could happen, think of the monkeys eventually writing Shakespeare's works http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
I believe that from a purely informatics standpoint, the maximum distance between finding an identical repeat (i.e. yourself, in another universe) is on the order of 10^10^100 m (sorry, don't have the reference here). That's 10 followed by 10^100 zeros, btw.
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Re: Differences between universes?

#27
jimhsu wrote:
Dadalos wrote:if any of you have experience with other procedurally generated games (in my case Minecraft) then you might know the feeling of spamming seeds just to see what you get upon spawning. the sheer variation in the generation can lead to some spectacular inspiration just in itself.
In that vein, I'd like to see the starting location be essentially fixed between seeds, to allow that sort of gameplay to happen (find cool seed, send to friend, friend is also able to see content in cool seed without being a billion light years away)
All seeds are essentially fixed in how they generate. That is, if two people start with the same seed, the universe, at time of game start, will be identical. Your paths will then immediately diverge as you interact with the universe in different ways, but the contents of the universe (location of materials/habitable planets/factions/etc) are the same. NPCs change the world as you do, so if you visit Planet Y 5 hours into the game but your friend doesn't visit until 50 hours in, you will have different experiences with the state of the planet due to volume of activity generated by NPCs, however, its location and general details will be the same.
I am 42.
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Re: Differences between universes?

#28
Kayse wrote:That is, if two people start with the same seed, the universe, at time of game start, will be identical. Your paths will then immediately diverge as you interact with the universe in different ways, but the contents of the universe (location of materials/habitable planets/factions/etc) are the same. NPCs change the world as you do, so if you visit Planet Y 5 hours into the game but your friend doesn't visit until 50 hours in, you will have different experiences with the state of the planet due to volume of activity generated by NPCs, however, its location and general details will be the same.
I actually have a problem to understand how this can work.
Let me explain:
The procedural generation works with pseudo-random numbers, and those are based on a seed, that generates a given sequence of pseudo-random numbers. So for whatever content is generated at game start, no problem: it will always be the same for the same seed.
But only a small part of the universe is generated at start. The rest is generated on demand, depending where the player is going (if the player turns left, a new sector on the left gets generated, and only when - later - the players returns and go right will the sector on the right be generated). And because the seed defines a sequence of pseudo-random numbers, when the order of generation changes, the content changes...

And don't think this is relative in the sense that the sequence of system/sector visited will be the same ( after all, the first sector generated, be it left or right, will be generated with the same seed). Indeed if a player go from system A - B - C - D, and another make A - B - C - return to B, then A - D, then each system may be the same (D will have the same color / name/... For both players) but the connectivity will be different. Only for player 1 is system D neighbor of C, for player 2 D is a neighbor of A. And this has a huge impact.

Therefore if you play with the same seed as a friend, not only will the universe diverge based on the players action (such as the state of the planet, or the fact the a factions needs or not some bread depending whether the player just delivered some or not) but it will be completely different outside of the zone generated at startup.
In principle this is not an issue, but just a problem if you want to compare notes, "share" a universe in the community by exchanging maps and tips on profitable trade routes...
Unless, as often, I am mistaken...
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Re: Differences between universes?

#29
CSE wrote: I actually have a problem to understand how this can work.
Let me explain:
The procedural generation works with pseudo-random numbers, and those are based on a seed, that generates a given sequence of pseudo-random numbers. So for whatever content is generated at game start, no problem: it will always be the same for the same seed.
But only a small part of the universe is generated at start. The rest is generated on demand, depending where the player is going (if the player turns left, a new sector on the left gets generated, and only when - later - the players returns and go right will the sector on the right be generated). And because the seed defines a sequence of pseudo-random numbers, when the order of generation changes, the content changes...
The whole point behind a seed is to have the universe identical. If it's not, then there's no point of a seed. Minecraft does it the same way. You have the same seed as someone else, then the block at x,y,z in one world is the same as x,y,z in another world. It is meant to be generated that way. If LT can't, then there is no point of being able to input a seed.
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Differences between universes?

#30
DWMagus wrote:The whole point behind a seed is to have the universe identical. If it's not, then there's no point of a seed. Minecraft does it the same way. You have the same seed as someone else, then the block at x,y,z in one world is the same as x,y,z in another world. It is meant to be generated that way. If LT can't, then there is no point of being able to input a seed.
I agree. This is why I said "I don't understand how it works" and not that it should be as I said :)

Does Minecraft generate the whole "world" in one shot? Is it infinite?

I was thinking of a possible solution to stack "seeds" for unvisited neighboring regions. And then pull them when required. So if system/zone A has 2 neighbors, the seeds of both neighbors is stored (but the generation is not started), so that whenever the "second neighbor" gets visited (and even if it gets visited first), it is generated with a given seed.
I guess this could work but be somewhat difficult to manage if there are many connections (as sector C is not generated, I know it is neighbor with B, but is is also neighbor with D that comes after B? Or does the neighbor of D need also a seed as it is different from C?).
Too late to think clearly.... :oops:
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