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Re: Unfixed hardpoints

#18
Commander McLane wrote:What about a rather early semester (maybe even highschool) philosophy course? Leib-Seele-Dichotomie and all that?
Sure, if English is your mothertongue... In my language it's called "tweeslachtigheid" or "dualisme". :) The English word for it does have a certain flair.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Unfixed hardpoints

#19
Katorone wrote:
Commander McLane wrote:What about a rather early semester (maybe even highschool) philosophy course? Leib-Seele-Dichotomie and all that?
Sure, if English is your mothertongue... In my language it's called "tweeslachtigheid" or "dualisme". :) The English word for it does have a certain flair.
Well, I have purposefully used a German example, not an English one. ;)

After all, dichótomos is a Greek term, not an English one, and is used as a technical term in many academic disciplines, philosophy being only one of them (but one which is already taught in schools, and where I'd expect students to come across the technical term).
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Re: Unfixed hardpoints

#20
I'm definitely the kind of person who loves to fiddle and max out stats for everything, but I don't see why locking in basic components (like Josh is suggesting) limits that. Remember, the AI has to play by the same rules as the player - so EVERY ship will have the same, locked-in basic components. All frigates have the same basic starting stats - or at least, that's how I'm understanding it. The customization stays the same, because you can then decide how to improve those stats in whatever direction you like. So yes, to add in improved engine components you'd have to sacrifice a shield emitter or a missile launcher, but you'd have to do that anyway, wouldn't you? No fighter is ever going to have the same shields as a battleship. Not every component can be added to every ship, even just due to size and power requirements.

I will admit that the crafter in me is a little disappointed that we can't build some of those modifications directly into the ships we design ourselves, but honestly, I don't think that's going to matter to me very much while I'm busy building my pirate empire.
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Re: Unfixed hardpoints

#21
Commander McLane wrote:After all, dichótomos is a Greek term, not an English one, and is used as a technical term in many academic disciplines, philosophy being only one of them (but one which is already taught in schools, and where I'd expect students to come across the technical term).
Yeah, German isn't my primary language either. :D
Johnny Fedora wrote:I'm definitely the kind of person who loves to fiddle and max out stats for everything, but I don't see why locking in basic components (like Josh is suggesting) limits that. Remember, the AI has to play by the same rules as the player - so EVERY ship will have the same, locked-in basic components. All frigates have the same basic starting stats - or at least, that's how I'm understanding it. The customization stays the same, because you can then decide how to improve those stats in whatever direction you like. So yes, to add in improved engine components you'd have to sacrifice a shield emitter or a missile launcher, but you'd have to do that anyway, wouldn't you? No fighter is ever going to have the same shields as a battleship. Not every component can be added to every ship, even just due to size and power requirements.

I will admit that the crafter in me is a little disappointed that we can't build some of those modifications directly into the ships we design ourselves, but honestly, I don't think that's going to matter to me very much while I'm busy building my pirate empire.
The way I understand it, you're right. Ships of the same class will have the same basic stats. They'll have a small engine, some power and some sensors.
What worries me is what happens when you're buying 10 or even 100 ships. What would you have to do to outfit them all? The way X3 does it comes to mind, but I don't think those methods would do LT a favour.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Unfixed hardpoints

#22
@Johnny Fedora
Johnny Fedora wrote:The customization stays the same, because you can then decide how to improve those stats in whatever direction you like. So yes, to add in improved engine components you'd have to sacrifice a shield emitter or a missile launcher, but you'd have to do that anyway, wouldn't you?
Yes you would have to min max your components which ever way the system goes.
The problem is you can only change 4 generator hardpoints while the ship has 4 locked out generator hardpoints. (1 sensor, 1 power grid, 2 thrusters)

The locked out hardpoints can never be upgraded or replaced only supplemented with the remaining 4 unlocked generator hardpoints.
This means you can never upgrade your existing engines only add new ones this takes up valuable hardpoints which can be used for other ship systems.
JoshParnell wrote:2. You buy a fighter, it has 4 generator hardpoints, but comes with factory-installed sensor, power grid, and thrusters. It works out-of-the-box. Later, when you want to upgrade, you simply purchase an auxiliary power generator, propulsion boosters, sensor enhancers, etc, and use the hardpoints for those.
Johnny Fedora wrote:I'm definitely the kind of person who loves to fiddle and max out stats for everything, but I don't see why locking in basic components (like Josh is suggesting) limits that. Remember, the AI has to play by the same rules as the player - so EVERY ship will have the same, locked-in basic components. All frigates have the same basic starting stats - or at least, that's how I'm understanding it.
The problem with locking out the basic components for every ship in the galaxy means handicapping the potential of every ship.
Each ship would be limited in the amount of choices within their 4 effective generator hardpoint slots if they had 8 effective generator hardpoint slots the choices increase.
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Re: Unfixed hardpoints

#23
I feel the same as some people here.

If I had a ship with a Mk1 Engine and I wanted more speed but I also wanted an extra weapon and I had 1 hardpoint left I'd like to be able to do it. It seems logical that I'd swap out the current engine with a more powerful engine but the same engine size as the last one and then add a weapon to the extra hardpoint I've got.
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Re: Unfixed hardpoints

#24
It is clear that the flexibility increase as the number of hardpoints increase, as a number of people has pointed out.

But we also need to ask our-self, how flexible is a small agile fighter supposed to be?

Another question of game design is will there be different hardpoint sizes? (like small-medium-large-very large). It doesn't make sense that you can stick the same engine to power a battleship that works on your fighter.


Regarding the "factory installed engine" debate I think it would make the most sense if the factory installed version was called "auxiliary engine" and installed on a hardpoint but not actually occupy it. So you can place a real engine ontop of the engine hardpoint and retain the same amount of hardpoints and flexibility.

If you should get your engine destroyed in flight or sell it by mistake you would still always have the auxiliary one still beneath it.
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Re: Unfixed hardpoints

#25
I think we've gotten a bit derailed here, and I think people have slightly misunderstood what I'm saying. What I'm saying is this: I will not allow you to strip all components from your ship, to the point that it is not functional. When you buy it, it will be functional, period.

I guess I should say, "stop thinking about hardpoints," this point is really distracting. Whether you want to call it a hardpoint or not does not matter. Internally, the engine treats these "factory-installed" components as hardpoints, but it's clear to me that this is throwing off the discussion.

The argument against this seems to be "but that limits my ability to use the fixed hardpoints." But what I'm saying is, no, it doesn't, because these are extra hardpoints that would not exist in the other system. I am providing extra slots that the factory equipment will use. It does not have to change the number of usable hardpoints.

So, let me re-phrase this. All ships will come with basic factory-installed equipment that will make sure your ship is functional as soon as you buy it. As far as you are concerned, these do not take up hardpoints or affect you in any way, except for the fact that you don't have the "freedom" to build a non-functional ship. The only change is that now, you are thinking of equipment upgrades as being upgrades, not replacements. In terms of gameplay, it makes no difference whatsoever. Think of it this way: in the new system, you start with X and add 4 to it, as opposed to in the old system, where you start with X and replace it with X + 4. The result is the same either way, but the former is more tractable! Whether you call it an upgrade or a replacement is really just a matter of semantics if the result is the same.

Now, as for designing your own ship, it's a completely different matter, and we shouldn't pollute this discussion with it. I imagine that when you design your own ship, you will be able to choose the balance of factory parts, or perhaps use your own special parts. The game would still require that you place at least 1 engine, 1 power gen, etc. But this is really a totally different matter!
“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” ~ Henry Ford
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Re: Unfixed hardpoints

#26
  • JoshParnell wrote:I rewrote the hardpoint system to incorporate the notion of "fixed" hardpoints, i.e., things that are factory-installed and cannot be replaced or removed. These fixed hardpoints will include a hull, thrusters, a basic sensor, and a basic power grid.
  • JoshParnell wrote:I think we've gotten a bit derailed here, and I think people have slightly misunderstood what I'm saying. What I'm saying is this: I will not allow you to strip all components from your ship, to the point that it is not functional. When you buy it, it will be functional, period.
  • JoshParnell wrote:So, let me re-phrase this. All ships will come with basic factory-installed equipment that will make sure your ship is functional as soon as you buy it. As far as you are concerned, these do not take up hardpoints or affect you in any way, except for the fact that you don't have the "freedom" to build a non-functional ship.
  • JoshParnell wrote:The argument against this seems to be "but that limits my ability to use the fixed hardpoints." But what I'm saying is, no, it doesn't, because these are extra hardpoints that would not exist in the other system. I am providing extra slots that the factory equipment will use. It does not have to change the number of usable hardpoints.
These quotes contain the heart of the issue.

In order to understand what is happening we need to focus on one category:
  • 1. Ships have been bought

Ships that have been bought:
  • JoshParnell wrote:The game would still require that you place at least 1 engine, 1 power gen, etc.
  • Will have functional with factory installed equipment by default (1 sensor, 1 power grid, 1 thruster, etc.)

    Will not be able to go below the minimum allowed factory installed equipment.
From the added information Josh has provided above replaced or removed means to me:
  • There will be a restriction on the minimum amount of parts a ship can have but you can replace those parts to upgrade your ship.

    This understanding has solved a lot of problems i have had with this change.
Agree with:
  • The need to standardize every ship which has been bought with a set of factory installed equipment.
Issues:
  • Can not go below the minimum allowed equipment.
    (conditional issue: if i am misunderstanding and i can not replace the factory installed equipment as to upgrade my ship)
Comments:
  • I am nitpicking but i can think of ways allowing the freedom to go below the minimum allowed equipment could be beneficial along with allowing player to experiment with the extra hardpoints provided.
Examples:
  • 1. A player has bought a small carrier along with 5 small fighter with the intention of striping down the fighters factory installed equipment to only use what is necessary to complete its purpose. The small fighter's purpose is to defend the carrier from other fighter who plan to duck under the carriers shield to attack. This small fighter only needs 1 engine, 1 hull, 1 power grid, weapons. other defenses/offences it can equip. Sensors have been removed as the fighter wont stray far from the carrier and could receive sensor data from a up-link with that carrier's sensors.

    2. A player has bought a large fighter which serves as a small carrier along with 4 small fighters with the intention stripping down the small fighter to serve as kamikaze ships. The small fighters would only need 1 engine, 1 hull, 1 power grid more engines could be added along with hull reinforcements. The sensors wont be useful as a line of sight would be established with the target.

    3. A player has bought a large carrier and 80 small fighters with the intention of stripping down the fighters using them as weaponized beacons to notify the carrier if anyone has breached the players territory. The small fighters only need 1, hull, 1 sensor, 1 power grid along with shields, weapons. The carrier would simply detach the fighters from the hanger and they would drift out of the carrier as the carrier moves away. The carrier would do this until the border of the player territory has been established.
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Re: Unfixed hardpoints

#27
Actzoltan wrote:
  • JoshParnell wrote:I rewrote the hardpoint system to incorporate the notion of "fixed" hardpoints, i.e., things that are factory-installed and cannot be replaced or removed. These fixed hardpoints will include a hull, thrusters, a basic sensor, and a basic power grid.
  • JoshParnell wrote:I think we've gotten a bit derailed here, and I think people have slightly misunderstood what I'm saying. What I'm saying is this: I will not allow you to strip all components from your ship, to the point that it is not functional. When you buy it, it will be functional, period.
  • JoshParnell wrote:So, let me re-phrase this. All ships will come with basic factory-installed equipment that will make sure your ship is functional as soon as you buy it. As far as you are concerned, these do not take up hardpoints or affect you in any way, except for the fact that you don't have the "freedom" to build a non-functional ship.
  • JoshParnell wrote:The argument against this seems to be "but that limits my ability to use the fixed hardpoints." But what I'm saying is, no, it doesn't, because these are extra hardpoints that would not exist in the other system. I am providing extra slots that the factory equipment will use. It does not have to change the number of usable hardpoints.
These quotes contain the heart of the issue.

In order to understand what is happening we need to focus on one category:
  • 1. Ships have been bought

Ships that have been bought:
  • JoshParnell wrote:The game would still require that you place at least 1 engine, 1 power gen, etc.
  • Will have functional with factory installed equipment by default (1 sensor, 1 power grid, 1 thruster, etc.)

    Will not be able to go below the minimum allowed factory installed equipment.
From the added information Josh has provided above replaced or removed means to me:
  • There will be a restriction on the minimum amount of parts a ship can have but you can replace those parts to upgrade your ship.

    This understanding has solved a lot of problems i have had with this change.
Agree with:
  • The need to standardize every ship which has been bought with a set of factory installed equipment.
Issues:
  • Can not go below the minimum allowed equipment.
    (conditional issue: if i am misunderstanding and i can not replace the factory installed equipment as to upgrade my ship)
Comments:
  • I am nitpicking but i can think of ways allowing the freedom to go below the minimum allowed equipment could be beneficial along with allowing player to experiment with the extra hardpoints provided.
Examples:
  • 1. A player has bought a small carrier along with 5 small fighter with the intention of striping down the fighters factory installed equipment to only use what is necessary to complete its purpose. The small fighter's purpose is to defend the carrier from other fighter who plan to duck under the carriers shield to attack. This small fighter only needs 1 engine, 1 hull, 1 power grid, weapons. other defenses/offences it can equip. Sensors have been removed as the fighter wont stray far from the carrier and could receive sensor data from a up-link with that carrier's sensors.

    2. A player has bought a large fighter which serves as a small carrier along with 4 small fighters with the intention stripping down the small fighter to serve as kamikaze ships. The small fighters would only need 1 engine, 1 hull, 1 power grid more engines could be added along with hull reinforcements. The sensors wont be useful as a line of sight would be established with the target.

    3. A player has bought a large carrier and 80 small fighters with the intention of stripping down the fighters using them as weaponized beacons to notify the carrier if anyone has breached the players territory. The small fighters only need 1, hull, 1 sensor, 1 power grid along with shields, weapons. The carrier would simply detach the fighters from the hanger and they would drift out of the carrier as the carrier moves away. The carrier would do this until the border of the player territory has been established.
Geez!

Way to miss the whole point.

Okay, every ship has a set of basic sensors, engine, etc.

Accept this fact, THEN IGNORE IT. Your ship will fly around. Your ship will not leak air. Worry less about the details.

Your ship also has a fixed number of hard points - call it four, eight, whatever. I assume the number goes up or down depending on the size and possibly the quality of your ship.

From your perspective, when you buy the ship, THEY WILL ALL BE EMPTY.

You will be free to install your upgrades: engines, shielding, or whatever in these hard points. You can make the ship be the best it can be, spend a million creds on the upgrades in those slots, to make it the baddest thing in space, whatever. The point is, you will not miss "other" hard points at all, because from your perspective they will not even exist.

The only difference here will be the fact that your ship, when you strip out all your fancy upgrades, and leave all the hard points empty, will Still Fly Around. It will Still Not Leak Air.

When you talk about "stripping down" fighters, you're still pretty much listing the basics as still needed - engine, power, hull plates, sensors. You need very basic versions of all that stuff? Great, easy, just don't install any upgrades, use the really basic stuff the fighter came prepackaged with.

Is that clear enough? I could draw diagrams. Abandon your arguement. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

If you want more hardpoints to play around with, just straight up ask for more hardpoints, don't wuss out. :lol: :P :roll:
- The Snark Knight

"Look upward, and share the wonders I've seen."

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