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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#16
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:45 am
BFett wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:53 am
Or all ships could be treated the same and exit a massive hanger when they are finished. Being hidden from view while they are being worked on.
why handle them differently from stations?
stations have to be built in plain view anyway, why not reuse whatever system they use?

also, why make capitals a special case? why would a fighter in construction be handled differently than capship construction? (besides the scale of the construction [something])
why shouldnt i be able to just put together a fighter in space if i dont have a production bay to do it internally?
I never said that a particular graphical display of construction shouldn't occur. I'm perfectly fine with constructing all ships in the same manner in which stations will be constructed. But, perhaps assembly lines are more effective at quickly assembling ships, and maybe since stations are so large they are considered one time structures which aren't mass produced and in turn require a different method of being constructed.

In real life cars are assembled on assembly lines, and large skyscrapers and other buildings are constructed individually. So, I'm considering that the idea could persist in Limit Theory.
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#17
BFett wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:55 am
I never said that a particular graphical display of construction shouldn't occur.
and if you look closely you'll see i never said anything about graphics :P (in that context)

BFett wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:55 am
maybe since stations are so large they are considered one time structures which aren't mass produced and in turn require a different method of being constructed.
In real life cars are assembled on assembly lines, and large skyscrapers and other buildings are constructed individually. So, I'm considering that the idea could persist in Limit Theory.
and did you ever see what a modern day shipyard looks like? cranes and support structures not unlike (in function) to the ones you see around building construction...
Spoiler:      SHOW
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because they are about the scale of a skyscraper, just lying on the side, and thus require pretty similar procedures and tools

im also not saying that ships should be built only in free space. but your first statement about "massive hanger"s [sic] strongly implied that they can only be built internally and hidden
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#19
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:20 pm

and did you ever see what a modern day shipyard looks like? cranes and support structures not unlike (in function) to the ones you see around building construction...
Spoiler:      SHOW
Image
because they are about the scale of a skyscraper, just lying on the side, and thus require pretty similar procedures and tools

im also not saying that ships should be built only in free space. but your first statement about "massive hanger"s [sic] strongly implied that they can only be built internally and hidden
Well there lies the difference. It's not practical to manufacture small ships in space because you end up taking resources not designed for such small scale, plus usually you don't manufacture just a single small ship whereas capitals wouldn't be continually produced because the market is significantly smaller.

For an analogy provided by your own post, cars and ships. Cars are sub capitals while ships are capital ships. Cargo ships aren't mass produced because they can't be reliably sold, they are produced on order and are produced in specialised outdoor facilities. Cars however are continually produced on production lines because the market is reliable enough for them.

You could probably produce a car in a shipyard, but it would be inefficient and a complete waste of the shipyard infrastructure.
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#20
Black--Snow wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:13 am
Well there lies the difference. It's not practical to manufacture small ships in space because you end up taking resources not designed for such small scale, plus usually you don't manufacture just a single small ship whereas capitals wouldn't be continually produced because the market is significantly smaller.

For an analogy provided by your own post, cars and ships. Cars are sub capitals while ships are capital ships. Cargo ships aren't mass produced because they can't be reliably sold, they are produced on order and are produced in specialised outdoor facilities. Cars however are continually produced on production lines because the market is reliable enough for them.

You could probably produce a car in a shipyard, but it would be inefficient and a complete waste of the shipyard infrastructure.

A: the point you quoted is only about capital ships, not about small ships.

B: where did i say that building small ships in free space would be efficient? i just remember saying possible :P

C: where did i say to use a full size capital gantry for small ship assembly? get a hand full of construction drones and do it "in your backyard"
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#21
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:33 am
C: where did i say to use a full size capital gantry for small ship assembly? get a hand full of construction drones and do it "in your backyard"
You didn't. I don't really see what being able to build fighters in open space brings to the game though. It's inefficient, why bother? You can just hire station services or purchase a ship.
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#22
Black--Snow wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:44 am
You didn't. I don't really see what being able to build fighters in open space brings to the game though. It's inefficient, why bother? You can just hire station services or purchase a ship.
why forbid it?
what if i dont have access to station services and/or the ship i want isnt available?
what if i just want to?
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#23
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:54 am
why forbid it?
what if i dont have access to station services and/or the ship i want isnt available?
what if i just want to?
It's not forbidding it. Forbidding would require the ability to do so to already be implemented. I don't see the effort of making a new construction mechanic worth it for building ships in open space.

You can't say "Why forbid your child from using a bidet" when you live and stay in a country without bidets, it doesn't make sense contextually.
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#24
Black--Snow wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:12 pm
It's not forbidding it. Forbidding would require the ability to do so to already be implemented. I don't see the effort of making a new construction mechanic worth it for building ships in open space.
why would you need a new mechanic?
use construction drones the same way you do for stations.

I'd also like to point out that you started this topic :P
So the "implementing a new mechanic isnt worth it" argument is a tad hypocritical :P
Because building capships in space isnt any different from building noncaps in space
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#25
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:07 am
Black--Snow wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:12 pm
It's not forbidding it. Forbidding would require the ability to do so to already be implemented. I don't see the effort of making a new construction mechanic worth it for building ships in open space.
why would you need a new mechanic?
use construction drones the same way you do for stations.

I'd also like to point out that you started this topic :P
So the "implementing a new mechanic isnt worth it" argument is a tad hypocritical :P
Because building capships in space isnt any different from building noncaps in space
Well no. The aesthetic component of construction adds to the game, but I don't personally see how creating a method of building in space is.

I assumed construction of space stations would be more EVE-esque. Being that you dropped a 'manufactured' BP into space and it slowly became a station, not that you built it modularly with drones. If it were built via drones I suppose it could be effortlessly applied to ships, but I still don't see the value in it.

Also, I was under the impression that capital ships would be built in open gantries, not in open space (I'm sure you get the distinction?).
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#26
Black--Snow wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:25 am
Also, I was under the impression that capital ships would be built in open gantries, not in open space (I'm sure you get the distinction?).
That is a purely visual distinction. The code behind it would very likely be identical.
Visible construction needs (noteworthy) extra code.
Having it inside some construct or in free space doesnt change a bit, why would it?
Black--Snow wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:25 am
If it were built via drones I suppose it could be effortlessly applied to ships, but I still don't see the value in it.
You mean no value added beyond getting the visible capship construction for free?
Black--Snow wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:25 am
Well no. The aesthetic component of construction adds to the game, but I don't personally see how creating a method of building in space is.
Where is the difference between a (cap)ship sitting in space with a station pumping resources into it and a drone/ship pumping resources into a free floating ship mould?
Black--Snow wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:25 am
I assumed construction of space stations would be more EVE-esque. Being that you dropped a 'manufactured' BP into space and it slowly became a station, not that you built it modularly with drones.
February 17th
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2268#p31806
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#27
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:17 pm
--
Okay look, let me put it this way.
My argument for why you SHOULDN'T be able to just build in space..

Manufacturing is necessarily cheaper than the sale price of the object on the open market. This is true for any profitable product and is necessary to make money.
In real life this works because there is an initial cost and necessary infrastructure to manufacture things that makes it unrealistic to buy for one production run. One wouldn't buy a car factory to build themselves on Toyota, it's not practical.

However, the real life equivalent of building ships free floating in space is having a free car factory available to you. You would never buy a car because you can manufacture it for so much cheaper since you don't pay the initial or ongoing costs associated with it.

I don't think capital ships or small ships should be able to be built free floating. I think you should need to have the infrastructure built or hired to build ships because otherwise there is no incentive to ever buying ships as opposed to manufacturing them.
I am literally and wholly in love with myself.
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#28
Why should profitability determine what i can do?

And why would drone based construction be free (or at least very cheap)?
i still need the processed materials or a ton of ore and a manufacturing plant + blueprints to turn the ore into processed materials.

Those dont come for free.
Neither do the drones nor the time needed to construct the object.

And if you are afraid that free space construction would outcompete factory halls...
Have you heard of the magic of "numerical balancing"?
Make drones (a lot) more expensive for the same build capacity.

And why do gantries not trigger that defence reflex?
A gantry reduces the resources needed for a given ship size greatly compared to a closed factory, why is that no problem?
If the "you have to have upfront cost" argument is to hold in the form you presented.

Also, all the talk about mass production, factories and profitability doesnt explain why i couldnt take a bunch of tools and materials and build a car/ship in my backyard
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#29
I think it should be possible to build in empty space. It is just going to take much more time to do so with the same materials. And since the process isn't automated it would take a much longer time to manufacture and the price of the ship would be much greater than other mass produced ships.

In summary, Yes you can build your own ship but:

-It will take longer to make (whereas a factory could make 10 in the same time it takes you to make 1)
-It will have lower profit margins (It's difficult to compete if the factory is selling the same thing for much less than you)
-Only one is built
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Re: Visible Construction of Capital Ships

#30
BFett wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:41 pm
I think it should be possible to build in empty space. It is just going to take much more time to do so with the same materials. And since the process isn't automated it would take a much longer time to manufacture and the price of the ship would be much greater than other mass produced ships.
-Only one is built
that is just a question of how much one can automate their forces, though.

i'd personally expect a control interface thats pretty agnostic to what exact construction method is used at the bottom level.
i just tell them to build x units and they figure out a good way to do it.

or at the very least being able to define production lines which can include any sort of production
from factories over gantries to drone construction ships.

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