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Re: trading system idea

#19
square wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:47 am
i mean something of actual use/worth to the other party (doesn't have to be generally accepted), not some goats or virtual whatever
virtual whatevers are useful for me, i can exchange those tokens with everyone for what i want or need.
for basically any good i could desire.
where is that not useful?

also, why not goats? where is paying in goats fundamentally different to paying in other goods or services?
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Re: trading system idea

#20
If you pay in goods or services, you have to be able to provide the goods and/or services the other party wants. This is called mutual want. Money provides a good stand-in for goods or services, because everybody wants it. In particular, another party which can provide the goods and/or services the second party wants. Thus, it fulfills the mutual want.
Interesting to note is the fact everybody wants money for the simple reason that everybody wants money. It is only reasonable to take money which is useful, but it is only the expected taking of money by someone else which makes it useful.
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Re: trading system idea

#21
square wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:27 pm
still don't see why it should break when used more regularly
it breaks down when used as only form of goods exchange in a complex society.
if you have to go through a dozend people to get what you want from what you have at the moment for every single thing you'll probably quit from frustration before the second hour of playing the game :P

(totally forgot that this tab was open with this started post... oops)
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Re: trading system idea

#22
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:19 am
square wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:27 pm
still don't see why it should break when used more regularly
it breaks down when used as only form of goods exchange in a complex society.
if you have to go through a dozend people to get what you want from what you have at the moment for every single thing you'll probably quit from frustration before the second hour of playing the game :P

(totally forgot that this tab was open with this started post... oops)
To emphasise on Corn's point: Imagine you went grocery shopping and your list looked like this:

- 24 eggs
- 1 whole chicken
- 2 iceberg lettuce heads
- Washing machine
- 2kg spaghetti
- 1kg mince beef
- 6 carrots

With money, you can pop over to the supermarket with a light weight trading means (MONEY MONEY MONEY) and grab the whole lot while paying say $40 to a single person. Relatively trouble free.

Now the same scenario without money. Even if we had a centralised trading hub (Which wouldn't work because peoples' lives would have to then be based around trading goods in a warehouse and it's all just a big cluster frak) you would need to visit (Likely a minimum of) 7 people; one for each item type. In all likelihood, those 7 people all need something different. Consider the following list to be traded for the shopping list, respectively:

- eggs for 8 litres of unleaded petrol (About $12 here)
- Chicken for 12 rolls of toilet paper
- Lettuce for 1L of Orange Juice
- Washing Machine for 25g of 10 karat gold
- Spaghetti for 2 tubes of toothpaste
- Beef for a 1m timber plank
- Carrots for a flat file

Now you've gone to buy your shopping at a centralised location -lucky not to have to run around your city- with all the above shit, which likely accumulates to a good amount of weight and bulk (Especially the plank and 9 litres of liquid!). It just plain doesn't make sense.

Additionally, there is no incentive for someone to own businesses. What's the point of having a shop when your customers would pay for your laptops with hundreds of toothbrushes? You don't frakking need them! It creates a niche that requires a list of like 500 different pricing points.
Selling new Laptop! Buy now for just 1000 toothbrushes OR
2 Washing machines
2 Dish dryers
1000 eggs
200 chickens
And so on unto infinity.

If we still had no centralised trading authorities (Like supermarkets and stores) but we had money, it would also be simple. It'd be exactly the same as buying and selling at community markets, just you wouldn't need to have rather eccentric items in your car on the way there.

What use does a car salesmen have for 428,000 toothbrushes? How did you even deliver them to him? Where did you even store that many!? I'm sure your realestate agent loved her 100,000,000,000 post-it notes.
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Re: trading system idea

#23
The only way I can see a trade be relatively easy to conduct - WITHOUT a currency or single agreed on trade item - is when large markets conduct trade and exchange many goods and services in one batch.

This could be for example a "trade caravan" that carries many goods (or skilled workers offering services), wich are not available at the target market.

Here the trade parties will come together an agree on an exchange.

Lets take a primitive forager society as example:

Tribe A knows Tribe B 60 km or two day marches away. They are respecting each other and exchanged some members in the past. (a biological requirement)
Tribe A, is good in fishing (dried fish), hunting bears (furs) and making shoes out of fur.
Tribe B is good in making spearheads, crafting strings and have lots of nut-trees nearby that can be harvested.

The tribes have an agreement to meet each other every second full moon to exchange their goods to bring their products.
Those are the products that can be produced additionally to the local consumption. (surplus production)

Tribe B will use up about 10 bundles of dried fish, 4 fur shoes and 2 bear furs within these two months.
Tribe A will use up 50 spear heads, 10 rolls of strings and 5 bundles of nuts within these two months.

So they agree that Tribe A will bring
10 fish-bundles,
4 shoes and
2 furs,

Tribe B will exchange this with
50 spear heads
10 string
5 nut-bundles

When the caravan arrives, they exchange the goods, sleep one night and take of again.

----

However Tribe A had to work 200 Man-hours to produce this surplus
Tribe B had to only work 80 Man-hours to produce their offers.

Its still a fair deal, as each Tribe cannot produce the goods the others have.

How could they negotiate:

Now Tribe A could argue that they want 100 spear heads next time. (50 more)
Tribe B thinks: ok, thats like 30 man-hours more of work for us, and asks Tribe A "what do we get in return?"
Tribe A says: you get 2 more shoes.
Tribe B declines: we dont use up more than 4 shoes over that time, how about 5 more fish.
Tribe A thinks: ok, to make those 50 spearheads our self, we would have to spend like 100 man hours extra, but for 5 bundles of fish, we only
have to work 40 hours extra. Its a good deal.

-> going back and forth, the tribes over time will agree on some new exchange prices wich are reasonable for both parties.

It does not require a single currency to make the trade happen,
BUT: it only reasonable works when trading a larger basket of goods and services, not so much when trading single types of product between individuals.

Individuals usually have only one or a few items they can offer (specialized production), but want to have a varied basket of different goods they consume.
They need some way to agree with each other how to exchange goods.
A way to organize this without money (tribe example) could be simply "reputation".
Someone who works hard all day or is well skilled to make a certain thing will be able to take his share of the tribes goods. Whereas someone who skips on work and dazes all day might get the others angry, and cannot consume (at least the better products).
But this social exchange only works in small social groups...

Someone from another tribe does not care how hard working, skilled or lazy an individual from a different tribe is.
What they think is: Whatever you give to me must have a higher utility to me (or someone I know) than whatever I give up to you.

Over time even simple societies agreed on some easily transferable trade goods, that has a utility for both parties and has a limited availability.
That could be preserved food, bronze-knifes, grains or cigarettes.
It will always head toward some kind of currency, when trading with other who are not in the close social circle.

I think the fallacy of people thinking that a society without "currency" will work out comes from the extrapolation of what works in a small social group to it also working in a large society. And thats not the case.
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Re: trading system idea

#24
Damocles wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:47 am
The only way I can see a trade be relatively easy to conduct - WITHOUT a currency or single agreed on trade item - is when large markets conduct trade and exchange many goods and services in one batch.

This could be for example a "trade caravan" that carries many goods (or skilled workers offering services), wich are not available at the target market.

Here the trade parties will come together an agree on an exchange.

Lets take a primitive forager society as example:

Tribe A knows Tribe B 60 km or two day marches away. They are respecting each other and exchanged some members in the past. (a biological requirement)
Tribe A, is good in fishing (dried fish), hunting bears (furs) and making shoes out of fur.
Tribe B is good in making spearheads, crafting strings and have lots of nut-trees nearby that can be harvested.

The tribes have an agreement to meet each other every second full moon to exchange their goods to bring their products.
Those are the products that can be produced additionally to the local consumption. (surplus production)

Tribe B will use up about 10 bundles of dried fish, 4 fur shoes and 2 bear furs within these two months.
Tribe A will use up 50 spear heads, 10 rolls of strings and 5 bundles of nuts within these two months.

So they agree that Tribe A will bring
10 fish-bundles,
4 shoes and
2 furs,

Tribe B will exchange this with
50 spear heads
10 string
5 nut-bundles

When the caravan arrives, they exchange the goods, sleep one night and take of again.

----
Trading between communities or large entities works a lot better than trading between individuals. The reason for this is that as a community you're much more likely to want, need and have to offer a greater diversity of goods than an individual, thus it can work reasonably. However, with globalisation and further so with LT's universalisation doesn't make sense since all goods are readily available with currency.
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Re: trading system idea

#25
Damocles wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:47 am
The only way I can see a trade be relatively easy to conduct - WITHOUT a currency or single agreed on trade item - is when large markets conduct trade and exchange many goods and services in one batch.

This could be for example a "trade caravan" that carries many goods (or skilled workers offering services), wich are not available at the target market.
We normally call those "banks".
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