Trait based Research

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Re: Trait based Research

Postby InfelixTurnus » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:42 am

I really like this, it seems like it could lead to very creative technology from the player. My question is, how will the AI and NPC factions know how to research and design based around these abstract concepts?
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:50 am

The same way the player does.

the tech says
"increases refire rate"
"decrease damage"

and the AI uses the rough numbers behind that
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby InfelixTurnus » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:03 am

Yes, but for something like materials, or a concept like 'electrical' as opposed to 'mechanical', or even a trait from something entirely unrelated...?
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:04 am

there still have to be numbers behind it, the same numbers that give the player the hints.

the AI uses the same sources
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:58 pm

hmmm.... connected thought:

could we have the "traits" generating intermediate goods needed to build the devices using that trait.

for example one gets the trait "high denstiy capacitors" from somewhere, the ability to produce the capacitors as commodity.

shields which have been designed with the "high density capacitors" trait then need the commodity then in their construction.

the generated commodities could also be used in the research and design process,
when one wants to design a shield with high density capacitors the research lab actually needs an influx of the caps to proceed (faster/ at all?) with the R&D task.


the commodities could also be used for reverse engineering the traits used to create them, or maybe a derivative tech which is similar
you dont get exactly the same trait/tech, but something thats similar to the original tech.

so reverse engineering stops being "steal one device, get the full device"
and becomes "steal a couple of devices, disassemble them, analyse the parts, get derivative tech, develop your own version with the derivative tech"


thoughts? :think:
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby F4wk35 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:21 am

The Trait-unlocks-commodity-system reminds me of the old Earth 2160 (was it I think...). There you had to unlock new parts via research, before you could assemble new vehicles freely with all the parts, you already unlocked. The difference would be, that you´d have more research-steps before building the final product. (And of course some products in between, like a sensor with more problems in certain environments). Unlocking research according to your actions, like scanning some shield-impairing nebula, also sounds like a good idea...it would make technology more localized and special.

Your Idea with the reverse engineering sounds great. Perhaps it could also be possible to steal a prototype from another faction to finish developing it. That could lead to heavily-guarded NPC-convoys sometimes carrying important prototype-equipment --> Pirate-Raids on said convoys --> Guard and Escort missions and so on :think: .
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby BFett » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:34 pm

Cornflakes_91 wrote:hmmm.... connected thought:

could we have the "traits" generating intermediate goods needed to build the devices using that trait.

for example one gets the trait "high denstiy capacitors" from somewhere, the ability to produce the capacitors as commodity.

shields which have been designed with the "high density capacitors" trait then need the commodity then in their construction.

the generated commodities could also be used in the research and design process,
when one wants to design a shield with high density capacitors the research lab actually needs an influx of the caps to proceed (faster/ at all?) with the R&D task.


the commodities could also be used for reverse engineering the traits used to create them, or maybe a derivative tech which is similar
you dont get exactly the same trait/tech, but something thats similar to the original tech.

so reverse engineering stops being "steal one device, get the full device"
and becomes "steal a couple of devices, disassemble them, analyze the parts, get derivative tech, develop your own version with the derivative tech"


thoughts? :think:

With procedural generation we are going to have a vast number of items. Think of a factory that has to produce energy weapons, if there are twenty sub-components for a single laser then how is the factory going to be able to produce more than a few types of lasers? Wouldn't thousands of sub-components be needed to produce every tech level of every type of item in LT?

Personally I think it's overkill to have thousands or even hundreds of sub-components in LT. It's easier to say that 8 types of ore are all that's needed to craft any item in LT. LT should have a decent number of base components (such as heat sinks and shields) which can be used to customize aspects of ships and structures. For example, I could take the ore I gathered and craft it into a heat-sink without needing to first produce a series of metal plates. This method simplifies crafting and reduces the number of items which must exist in Limit Theory.

When it comes to new technology, I think that anyone should have the ability to produce a component if they are in possession of the assembly chip. This is why it is so important to protect ships that are transporting these designs from the research stations to the manufacturing plants. It also makes it even more important to protect the structures which contain the blueprint because if the designs fall into the wrong hands, they can be easily produced.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Flatfingers » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:44 pm

BFett wrote:Personally I think it's overkill to have thousands or even hundreds of sub-components in LT. It's easier to say that 8 types of ore are all that's needed to craft any item in LT. LT should have a decent number of base components (such as heat sinks and shields) which can be used to customize aspects of ships and structures. For example, I could take the ore I gathered and craft it into a heat-sink without needing to first produce a series of metal plates. This method simplifies crafting and reduces the number of items which must exist in Limit Theory.

This is an interesting disagreement to me because it highlights that we still don't really know what playing Limit Theory will feel like.

There's what was in the Kickstarter vision statement, followed by two years of daily devlogs with occasional hints. But other than "something like Freelancer with warp rails," we just don't know what the primary play experience of LT will be. So we're guessing, based on the kinds of things we like and hope to see.

Some people will prefer an action-oriented RTS game where they don't have to worry with complex crafting stuff.

Some people will prefer a world-simulation game with some action in it, where they can craft everything from ship components to factions to empires.

My impression from all the things Josh has said about LT (that I can recall) is that it will look more like an RTS game. But the Limit Theory Scripting Language offers hope that vanilla LT can be extended to offer more simulationist opportunities.

So: those concerned that ideas like Cornflakes's about in-depth research would make LT too complicated can (I believe) rest easy. And those concerned that too much will be abstracted away (e.g., eight types of ore can magically craft anything) will have the power to add the depth they enjoy.

This common antagonism between gamer preferences for mechanical simplicity and simulationist depth isn't something that's keeping me awake at night where LT is concerned. ;)

(Apologies if anyone feels I'm oversimplifying their position; I'm just trying to keep this shorter than my usual wall-of-text game design musings.)
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:55 am

BFett wrote:With procedural generation we are going to have a vast number of items. Think of a factory that has to produce energy weapons, if there are twenty sub-components for a single laser then how is the factory going to be able to produce more than a few types of lasers? Wouldn't thousands of sub-components be needed to produce every tech level of every type of item in LT?


you make it sound like that is a bad thing?

intermediate steps create many many opportunities for almost every kind of player.

traders have more entry points and opportunities to follow their profession.

more dependencies between different industries create more gameplay for production oriented players as well, as they have more ways to get into the market.
with a single step ore -> item process there are one or maybe two big mining corps which supply all the other industries which have no other dependencies.
to enter the market with only ore as dependency you have to concurrent directly with the major ore producers
with multi step processes you can carve out your own little niche with some small intermediate product which is useful to the bigger players and is qualitatively different to what the others produce.

research/development oriented players have the obvious paths open to them

exploring players have the possibility to find new trade routes for intermediates which can be useful in other parts of the universe as well.
maybe zorblaxians have excellent capacitor tech, the caps would be useful in many different products, so they can sell them for a good price to others who dont have that tech.
the influx of good capacitors would lead to the development of many improved devices, but the inventors of the devices dont have the tech for the capacitors, they have to buy them to build their stuff.
the generally available tech level rises without the research having to be spread to everyone.

pirates would have more possibilites to follow their profession, as there is more trade and transport going on in the universe.

BFett wrote:Personally I think it's overkill to have thousands or even hundreds of sub-components in LT.


why?

have a good interface to find stuff you search for.
maybe dedicatedly not, more variation in the equipment market gives more surprises and potential for unexpected change,
lessening the typical "end game" situation that the player knows exactly what he is running into.

BFett wrote:It's easier to say that 8 types of ore are all that's needed to craft any item in LT. LT should have a decent number of base components (such as heat sinks and shields) which can be used to customize aspects of ships and structures. For example, I could take the ore I gathered and craft it into a heat-sink without needing to first produce a series of metal plates. This method simplifies crafting and reduces the number of items which must exist in Limit Theory.


Master Parnell disagrees with you here

JoshParnell wrote:Oh, I don't think anyone said it would be just a blueprint + raw ore :D (wait, did I say that? If so, I didn't mean it...). There will definitely be intermediaries. Exactly how many stages of intermediaries is yet to be determined.

At the very minimum, you will need to go one step past raw materials.



BFett wrote:When it comes to new technology, I think that anyone should have the ability to produce a component if they are in possession of the assembly chip. This is why it is so important to protect ships that are transporting these designs from the research stations to the manufacturing plants. It also makes it even more important to protect the structures which contain the blueprint because if the designs fall into the wrong hands, they can be easily produced.


where did i say anthing different?

research/design stuff -> make assembly chip -> build item out of the required materials




Flatfingers wrote:My impression from all the things Josh has said about LT (that I can recall) is that it will look more like an RTS game.


which would be a perfect waste of all the world simulation mechanics which he promised from the very beginning :P


Flatfingers wrote:So: those concerned that ideas like Cornflakes's about in-depth research would make LT too complicated can (I believe) rest easy.


that isnt the in-depth version, the in-depth version fills 3 pages in another thread :P
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby BFett » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:55 am

Cornflakes_91 wrote:
BFett wrote:With procedural generation we are going to have a vast number of items. Think of a factory that has to produce energy weapons, if there are twenty sub-components for a single laser then how is the factory going to be able to produce more than a few types of lasers? Wouldn't thousands of sub-components be needed to produce every tech level of every type of item in LT?


you make it sound like that is a bad thing?

intermediate steps create many many opportunities for almost every kind of player.

traders have more entry points and opportunities to follow their profession.

more dependencies between different industries create more gameplay for production oriented players as well, as they have more ways to get into the market.
with a single step ore -> item process there are one or maybe two big mining corps which supply all the other industries which have no other dependencies.
to enter the market with only ore as dependency you have to concurrent directly with the major ore producers
with multi step processes you can carve out your own little niche with some small intermediate product which is useful to the bigger players and is qualitatively different to what the others produce.

research/development oriented players have the obvious paths open to them

exploring players have the possibility to find new trade routes for intermediates which can be useful in other parts of the universe as well.
maybe zorblaxians have excellent capacitor tech, the caps would be useful in many different products, so they can sell them for a good price to others who dont have that tech.
the influx of good capacitors would lead to the development of many improved devices, but the inventors of the devices dont have the tech for the capacitors, they have to buy them to build their stuff.
the generally available tech level rises without the research having to be spread to everyone.

pirates would have more possibilites to follow their profession, as there is more trade and transport going on in the universe.

BFett wrote:Personally I think it's overkill to have thousands or even hundreds of sub-components in LT.


why?

have a good interface to find stuff you search for.
maybe dedicatedly not, more variation in the equipment market gives more surprises and potential for unexpected change,
lessening the typical "end game" situation that the player knows exactly what he is running into.

BFett wrote:It's easier to say that 8 types of ore are all that's needed to craft any item in LT. LT should have a decent number of base components (such as heat sinks and shields) which can be used to customize aspects of ships and structures. For example, I could take the ore I gathered and craft it into a heat-sink without needing to first produce a series of metal plates. This method simplifies crafting and reduces the number of items which must exist in Limit Theory.


Master Parnell disagrees with you here

JoshParnell wrote:Oh, I don't think anyone said it would be just a blueprint + raw ore :D (wait, did I say that? If so, I didn't mean it...). There will definitely be intermediaries. Exactly how many stages of intermediaries is yet to be determined.

At the very minimum, you will need to go one step past raw materials.



BFett wrote:When it comes to new technology, I think that anyone should have the ability to produce a component if they are in possession of the assembly chip. This is why it is so important to protect ships that are transporting these designs from the research stations to the manufacturing plants. It also makes it even more important to protect the structures which contain the blueprint because if the designs fall into the wrong hands, they can be easily produced.


where did i say anthing different?

research/design stuff -> make assembly chip -> build item out of the required materials




Intermediate steps add unnecessary items to a game. Raw ore -> Refined ore -> sub-component -> component -> finished item
I can understand going from ore to refined ore to finished item, but the extra steps aren't necessary because they don't add anything to game-play. For instance, if we are using the above example then refined ores and sub-components don't carry any stats with them other than being per-requisites for a finished item. This fills the market with parts that may or may not be needed for crafting items. With so many parts on the market I think it would harm the economy because there may be far too many niche parts required to produce anything at a reasonable price.

Maybe there should be other industries other than mining. Perhaps gases can be mined from gas giants or nebula, and these gases are necessary for jump drives or some special type of engine. Either way, there are going to be limited base materials to work with because everything is derived from them. If you want to make a premium capacitor you still need 2 sheets of metal and a gas to craft it.


PS: Nice summary Flatfingers.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:43 pm

BFett wrote:Intermediate steps add unnecessary items to a game.


and i wrote a couple of paragraphs which argue differently and you make no argument against :P

BFett wrote:Raw ore -> Refined ore -> sub-component -> component -> finished item


where did you pull that process from suddenly?

all i said was

Ore -> intermediate (with also has characteristics) -> finished item (whichs characteristics are defined by the intermediates used in constructing it)

maybe one additional step from
ore -> refined ore -> intermediate -> finished item
to enable mixed-mineral ores
almandine [Aluminium + iron] -> aluminium-> lightweight missle tubes -> "hailstorm" rocket tower

maybe the (refined) ores even have characteristics which outline what kinds of intermediates you can develop that use them
for example the missle tube blueprint could not specifically ask for aluminium, but for any low density metal
so you could use aluminium, magnesium or titanium in the recipe and get the same end result.
reducing the total amount of different items in circulation, as there is one recipe for lightweight missle tubes instead one for every material available.

BFett wrote:With so many parts on the market I think it would harm the economy because there may be far too many niche parts required to produce anything at a reasonable price.


why should it harm the industry?

does it harm the industry in real life that there are a billion and three dependencies on practically everything thats produced?


BFett wrote:reasonable price


relative term is relative.

if a piece of equipment costs a certain amount on average, it costs that much and the "reasoable price" is that average.


BFett wrote:[...]than being per-requisites for a finished item


and whats ore then other than a prequisite for a finished item?


BFett wrote:Maybe there should be other industries other than mining. Perhaps gases can be mined from gas giants or nebula


so your "other industries" to mining corps are... mining corps?


BFett wrote:Either way, there are going to be limited base materials to work with because everything is derived from them.


source where?

why should the base materials be limited in the first place?

to my knowledge the ores are generated as everything else in LT.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby BFett » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:41 am

Base material MUST be of a smaller amount than constructed material because that's how it works in real life. A hundred some elements make up the periodic table yet they can be combined into thousands of molecular substances. In Limit Theory we only need a relatively small number of base materials (ore, gas, liquid) to construct everything there is in the LT universe.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:27 am

BFett wrote:Base material MUST be of a smaller amount than constructed material because that's how it works in real life. A hundred some elements make up the periodic table yet they can be combined into thousands of molecular substances. In Limit Theory we only need a relatively small number of base materials (ore, gas, liquid) to construct everything there is in the LT universe.


And where is the amount of possible end products limited?

There are x possible ores, and n*x products you can build from them

With x being some PCG defined very high number.


Also, nothing must be in a certain way in a game just because its that way in real life.

example, there are 8 ores in the hypothetical game != LT.

the one type of ship i can build needs ores A-E, and supplies need ores E-J.

8 inputs, 2 outputs.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:12 pm

With a fixed relation between goods and items we could also limit repairs by the availability of those goods.

For example easy repairs without complex equipment needs would need supplies of the component goods.
repairs with the goods could for example be done in a hangar without extra equipment needs or maybe a simple machine shop.
Highly specific resource requirements but low equipment needs.

More complex equipment would be needed without the manufactured goods but with the ores/refined metals that constitute the goods.
This would require a good machine shop or maybe a small factory, as theres the implicit requirement to produce the goods for the repairs.
This should be possible without assembly chips but maybe contributes to technology spread into the public domain (as per here), it shouldnt directly enable production of the goods, though.
Less specific resource needs traded for more specific equipment needs.


Some basic emergency patch ups should always be able without the ores or goods.
Maybe with generic spare parts goods or other ores.
Not sure about the facility needs, though.
Either pretty high, as theres a lot of improvisation to do or pretty low due to the general patchwork character of the repairs :think:
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:00 am

actually, the trait system could be used for adding visual flavour to a factions ships/stations/equipment
linky
Spoiler:      SHOW
On a connected idea, could ships/stations which are using similar/identical technologies (in their ship hull, not equipment) share optical features?

For example a zorblaxian scanner corvette may has some prongs at the front [technobabble sensor prongs].
A frigate derived from the corvette with a similar focus on scanning would have similar prongs.

Or a generic cruiser with jumpdrive capability would have some ring structure around it, and a specialised jump tug would have a much more pronounced ring structure, cause it has a larger jumpdrive.

Would give a big bonus to visual identification and memorability for the player "this ship is a scanner frigate of zorblaxian design" without the player knowing that ship type.
Just from correlating the visual characteristics.
Ship has prongs -> zorblaxian scanner ships have prongs -> z. Scanner ship


so traits have those visual features attached to them, so objects designed using those traits have the same visual elements to them.

(to use the example from the quote) zorblaxian scanner ships all have the trait "scanner prongs" in their design.

this could lead to interesting hybridised ship designs where multiple visual traits from multiple factions are used in one design.

(bit of zorblaxian sensor tech, bit of andresyan drive design, betazoid hull design....)
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