Trait based Research

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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Victor Tombs » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:59 am

I've wanted to see complex production processes since the very early days of LT. Be it concerned with material or fabrication of components/finished items. I expect I will face some disappointment in this department in the finished game.

A simulation game based on such criteria would have my money in a heartbeat. *nerdy :angel: *
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby BFett » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:53 am

Cornflakes_91 wrote:actually, the trait system could be used for adding visual flavour to a factions ships/stations/equipment
linky
Spoiler:      SHOW
On a connected idea, could ships/stations which are using similar/identical technologies (in their ship hull, not equipment) share optical features?

For example a zorblaxian scanner corvette may has some prongs at the front [technobabble sensor prongs].
A frigate derived from the corvette with a similar focus on scanning would have similar prongs.

Or a generic cruiser with jumpdrive capability would have some ring structure around it, and a specialised jump tug would have a much more pronounced ring structure, cause it has a larger jumpdrive.

Would give a big bonus to visual identification and memorability for the player "this ship is a scanner frigate of zorblaxian design" without the player knowing that ship type.
Just from correlating the visual characteristics.
Ship has prongs -> zorblaxian scanner ships have prongs -> z. Scanner ship


so traits have those visual features attached to them, so objects designed using those traits have the same visual elements to them.

(to use the example from the quote) zorblaxian scanner ships all have the trait "scanner prongs" in their design.

this could lead to interesting hybridised ship designs where multiple visual traits from multiple factions are used in one design.

(bit of zorblaxian sensor tech, bit of andresyan drive design, betazoid hull design....)


I like this idea. If it is implemented with enough variety (number of factions for each category) I think it could help make each faction look more unique and make the ships which mix technology stand out from one another. I still want to have the option to make my own faction based off of procedurally generated pieces. But, for ships in space and on the market, I think this method is the way to go.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Black--Snow » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:45 am

BFett wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:actually, the trait system could be used for adding visual flavour to a factions ships/stations/equipment
linky
Spoiler:      SHOW
On a connected idea, could ships/stations which are using similar/identical technologies (in their ship hull, not equipment) share optical features?

For example a zorblaxian scanner corvette may has some prongs at the front [technobabble sensor prongs].
A frigate derived from the corvette with a similar focus on scanning would have similar prongs.

Or a generic cruiser with jumpdrive capability would have some ring structure around it, and a specialised jump tug would have a much more pronounced ring structure, cause it has a larger jumpdrive.

Would give a big bonus to visual identification and memorability for the player "this ship is a scanner frigate of zorblaxian design" without the player knowing that ship type.
Just from correlating the visual characteristics.
Ship has prongs -> zorblaxian scanner ships have prongs -> z. Scanner ship


so traits have those visual features attached to them, so objects designed using those traits have the same visual elements to them.

(to use the example from the quote) zorblaxian scanner ships all have the trait "scanner prongs" in their design.

this could lead to interesting hybridised ship designs where multiple visual traits from multiple factions are used in one design.

(bit of zorblaxian sensor tech, bit of andresyan drive design, betazoid hull design....)


I like this idea. If it is implemented with enough variety (number of factions for each category) I think it could help make each faction look more unique and make the ships which mix technology stand out from one another. I still want to have the option to make my own faction based off of procedurally generated pieces. But, for ships in space and on the market, I think this method is the way to go.


Perhaps allow custom designs while researching new modules? It would be cool to allow either straight 3D models (Procedural texturing would be nice on those cause I'm bad at texturing, as I'm sure others are too) or allow us to cycle through procedural generations when researching. I really like the idea of modules influencing the visual design of a ship/station.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby BFett » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:51 pm

So, are you suggesting that we could design new modules for specific ship based technologies? I think it would be cool to be able to design new engines, hulls, sensors and other ship systems which appear on a ship at particular locations. Maybe even let the player decide where these pieces go once the technology has been purchased and equipped to the ship.

I also agree with your texturing idea since I'm not good at texturing either. It would be kind of neat to be able to draw directly on the ship assuming things didn't look messy.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Black--Snow » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:00 pm

BFett wrote:So, are you suggesting that we could design new modules for specific ship based technologies? I think it would be cool to be able to design new engines, hulls, sensors and other ship systems which appear on a ship at particular locations. Maybe even let the player decide where these pieces go once the technology has been purchased and equipped to the ship.

I also agree with your texturing idea since I'm not good at texturing either. It would be kind of neat to be able to draw directly on the ship assuming things didn't look messy.

You're researching a new sensor module, you want it to be a satellite dish instead the default antenna thing, you use a customize option to provide your own kind of 'branding' to you technology, something you think looks nice. This could be achieved through a parts customization screen (With either pre-set parts or a large set of procedurally generated parts) or it could be a set of completely procedurally generated models that you can choose from.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby BFett » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:54 pm

Black--Snow wrote:
BFett wrote:So, are you suggesting that we could design new modules for specific ship based technologies? I think it would be cool to be able to design new engines, hulls, sensors and other ship systems which appear on a ship at particular locations. Maybe even let the player decide where these pieces go once the technology has been purchased and equipped to the ship.

I also agree with your texturing idea since I'm not good at texturing either. It would be kind of neat to be able to draw directly on the ship assuming things didn't look messy.

You're researching a new sensor module, you want it to be a satellite dish instead the default antenna thing, you use a customize option to provide your own kind of 'branding' to you technology, something you think looks nice. This could be achieved through a parts customization screen (With either pre-set parts or a large set of procedurally generated parts) or it could be a set of completely procedurally generated models that you can choose from.


Yep, I like this idea. Assuming this isn't in the base game, I'd really like to have this mod.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:40 pm

Necro time \o/

Cornflakes_91 wrote:second: active breeding
when you use multiple traits which affect the same stat it is possible that a combination of both gets created (maybe with a small bonus applied)

(maybe its deterministic what result comes out of a certain trait combination?
so the same combination of traits yields the same equipment :think: )



"Breeding" of traits would actually also be beneficial for reverse engineering as well.

people often argued that reverse engineering should give some "common ancestor" tech node.
But where is that common ancestor actually?
In the tech tree we saw demonstrated and people argued around theres only linear ancestry, a long line back to (0,0) without any "common ancestry" besides any point where someone sold or stole the tech and developed from there on.
Potentially leading to a highly speciated tech tree with no common ancestors.

Breeding/mixing of technologies would enable a much more tightly interconnected network of techs, rather than many independent lines where the common ancestors are /somewhere/ in the far past.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:56 am

individual traits used in the design of an object could be individually scannable features of the object.

with different levels of detectability for different traits.

zorblaxian sensor prongs could be very easy to detect, hidden cargo compartments less easy ;)

This would serve the general concealment and discovery of abilities.
When you encounter an unknown type of ship you dont magically know all its capabilites but have to scan the ship (or analyse a wreck) to find out its characteristics.

This would also open up the possibility to conceal your capabilities.
maybe even including explicit concealment traits that can be applied to your equipment. (Lookalike ships or beam cannons disguised as mining beam anyone?)
Hiding your abilities or pretending to have different abilites.
Adding a "fake hull" trait with an already existing ship or equipment piece which then applies an easy to detect outer hull with the actual capabilities being harder to detect.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Flatfingers » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:56 pm

Concealing ship capabilities was a later feature in Star Fleet Battles, which implemented the idea of Q-ships from WWII.

It worked -- that is, it was generally a fun surprise -- in SFB because it was a relatively rare occurrence, and because the pace of that game gave you a chance to survive the discovery that the weak merchantman you just attacked is actually a well-armed destroyer. So implementing something similar to this in LT should keep those design points in mind.

On scanning for concealed capabilities, I'm generally in favor of this (because I like a nice complex scanning gameplay design ;) ), but I think I might want some kind of risk to go along with peeping inside a stranger's ship -- that's pretty invasive.

Finally, how would these ideas work within the concepts that ships have "traits," and that traits can be researched?

(I'm still thinking research will prove to be incompatible with the rest of LT's design, but that's a separate thread.)

Nice ideas!
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:02 pm

Flatfingers wrote:Concealing ship capabilities was a later feature in Star Fleet Battles, which implemented the idea of Q-ships from WWII.


yeah, the inspiration came from reading Honor Harrington 6, where she commands a group of Q ships :lol:

Flatfingers wrote:Finally, how would these ideas work within the concepts that ships have "traits," and that traits can be researched?


well, in first iteration they just flatly provide boni like "non-disguising" traits
a shielded cargo hold can just flatly make it harder to scan your hold (or maybe a portion of the hold if we differentiate holds)

the more i think about it the more i think that traits need "parameters" for a very special purpose: specifying already complete pieces of equipment/ships.
to define what appearance to generate in the case of disguised equipment and Q ships and to define what piece of equipment to mount in case of hardwired/preinstalled equipment.
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Wed May 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Hm... what about making strategic tendencies and astrographical features "environmental variables" in the research system?
To represent the general knowledge about realities of the environment.

Say theres a disproportionate amount of fighters being used theres a factor of "lots of fighters" in all research thats performed. Skewing research in some ways (weapons suitable for / against fighters).

Or if theres a lot of dangerous nebulas (electric discharges blah) theres a factor of nebula presence in research.
Resulting in equipment that protects against the nebulas, works better in them than unadapted equipment or utilises the same effects to some ends


This would lead to regional variations in technology, dynamical equilibrium with shifts and enable the AI to utilise "general knowledge" without being explicitly aware of it or having to calculate it on a per-AI basis.
(In the other direction it could enable the AI to explicitly reason about those environmental factors, to manipulate and utilise them)
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Re: Trait based Research

Postby BFett » Wed May 03, 2017 6:44 pm

I like this concept, so much so that I'd hope it would make its way into 1.0. Environment should also play a role in structural design of ships and stations.

This should make first contact situations more exciting because technology could be vastly different and specialized for specific situations and goals.
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