This video explains a great deal about black holes, especially how things should look both from inside and outside.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pAnRKD4raY
I can not tell how accurate that is, but it sounds convincing to a profane like me. Maybe this knowledge can find a place in LT (the black hole, not me a profane).
Post
Fri May 15, 2015 1:32 pm
#2
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
Well, with black holes, we simply don't know what's inside. There is now way to know, at least with our current theories and technology. So you could say that inside of black holes are are hordes of zombie rabbits, and that would be just as valid a theory as there being another universe there, even if the other universe theory is cooler. Unless you're really into zombie rabbits, in which case, to each their own.
So, we could put in all kinds of things for black holes. This is where the laws of physics as we know them break down, after all, so who knows?
If anyone sees an inaccuracy within this post, please feel free to correct me! I try to learn as much as I can.
The video is accurate in most respects, as far as I can tell.
So, we could put in all kinds of things for black holes. This is where the laws of physics as we know them break down, after all, so who knows?
If anyone sees an inaccuracy within this post, please feel free to correct me! I try to learn as much as I can.
The video is accurate in most respects, as far as I can tell.
Destruction is never precise, Creation is a thought, Time is an illusion, and Chaos and Order are one and the same.
Post
Fri May 15, 2015 3:32 pm
#3
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
Actually, we do know what it would look like if you would be inside a black hole because general relativity tells us that (thank you, Einstein and Swartzschield). It's just the point right in the middle that poses some trouble, because quantum mechanics get important and we have no idea what to do with it.
Didn't watch the video yet as my internet is currently at dial-up speeds.
Didn't watch the video yet as my internet is currently at dial-up speeds.
Warning: do not ask about physics unless you really want to know about physics.
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Post
Fri May 15, 2015 3:58 pm
#4
So, what does the the inside of a black hole look like? (I'm glad that your signature warns me about what I'm about to hear. )
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
True, true; when I think of black hole, I generally think of the quantum singularity in the middle, though the aren't the same thing. Or maybe I'm getting it completely wrong and the quantum singularity is the whole thing. I'm not exactly a physicist, after all, just a generally scientifically literate guy who likes theoretical physics.Dinosawer wrote:Actually, we do know what it would look like if you would be inside a black hole because general relativity tells us that (thank you, Einstein and Swartzschield). It's just the point right in the middle that poses some trouble, because quantum mechanics get important and we have no idea what to do with it.
So, what does the the inside of a black hole look like? (I'm glad that your signature warns me about what I'm about to hear. )
Last edited by Seryth Nortra on Fri May 15, 2015 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Destruction is never precise, Creation is a thought, Time is an illusion, and Chaos and Order are one and the same.
Post
Fri May 15, 2015 4:07 pm
#5
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
Usually with inside they mean inside the swartzschield radius (the point of no return). When you cross that you either burn up our don't notice anything, they're not quite sure yet.
Anyhow, if you would survive the crossing, it can't be properly explained anymore how it "looks like" because the fabric of space-time is incredibly bent, to the point where 2 dimensions are actually switched: time and the spatial dimension of direction towards the centre. That's the actual reason you can't escape a black hole, because moving outward would literally mean moving backwards in time.
Anyhow, if you would survive the crossing, it can't be properly explained anymore how it "looks like" because the fabric of space-time is incredibly bent, to the point where 2 dimensions are actually switched: time and the spatial dimension of direction towards the centre. That's the actual reason you can't escape a black hole, because moving outward would literally mean moving backwards in time.
Warning: do not ask about physics unless you really want to know about physics.
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Post
Fri May 15, 2015 4:20 pm
#6
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
Which would take moving faster than light. Huh. I wonder what a tachyon moving to the inside of a black would do...Dinosawer wrote:Usually with inside they mean inside the swartzschield radius (the point of no return). When you cross that you either burn up our don't notice anything, they're not quite sure yet.
Anyhow, if you would survive the crossing, it can't be properly explained anymore how it "looks like" because the fabric of space-time is incredibly bent, to the point where 2 dimensions are actually switched: time and the spatial dimension of direction towards the centre. That's the actual reason you can't escape a black hole, because moving outward would literally mean moving backwards in time.
Destruction is never precise, Creation is a thought, Time is an illusion, and Chaos and Order are one and the same.
Post
Fri May 15, 2015 4:23 pm
#7
Good thing they don't exist
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
Code: Select all
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR
PLEASE STAND BY AND REBOOT UNIVERSE
Warning: do not ask about physics unless you really want to know about physics.
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Post
Fri May 15, 2015 4:39 pm
#8
I didn't know that the universe ran on Windows.
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
Do we really know that for a fact? I didn't think that we did. Am I wrong?Dinosawer wrote:Good thing they don't existCode: Select all
DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR PLEASE STAND BY AND REBOOT UNIVERSE
I didn't know that the universe ran on Windows.
Destruction is never precise, Creation is a thought, Time is an illusion, and Chaos and Order are one and the same.
Post
Fri May 15, 2015 4:49 pm
#9
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
Not as such, but they would break so many laws of physics (causality, the fact that physical properties can't be complex numbers for starters) that they seem slightly less likely than dark matter consisting of invisible purple ducks that sing Bohemian Rhapsody.
Aside from that, there's also not the tiniest bit of hints that they do exist m
Aside from that, there's also not the tiniest bit of hints that they do exist m
Warning: do not ask about physics unless you really want to know about physics.
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Post
Fri May 15, 2015 5:08 pm
#10
As an aside, wouldn't it be possible to explore a black hole if you could manipulate spacetime around yourself? I mean, assuming that you somehow managed to get around the issue of generating the negative energy required and the potential time paradoxes and stuff.
Edit: I want one of those ducks!
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
Fascinating! Star Trek: Voyager just died, though... (Their entire premise is based around events caused by technology that emits tachyons.)Dinosawer wrote:Not as such, but they would break so many laws of physics (causality, the fact that physical properties can't be complex numbers for starters) that they seem slightly less likely than dark matter consisting of invisible purple ducks that sing Bohemian Rhapsody.
Aside from that, there's also not the tiniest bit of hints that they do exist m
As an aside, wouldn't it be possible to explore a black hole if you could manipulate spacetime around yourself? I mean, assuming that you somehow managed to get around the issue of generating the negative energy required and the potential time paradoxes and stuff.
Edit: I want one of those ducks!
Destruction is never precise, Creation is a thought, Time is an illusion, and Chaos and Order are one and the same.
Post
Fri May 15, 2015 5:30 pm
#11
I thought it was just a matter of velocity. If Light can not escape the gravitational pull does not it mean that Light is simply too slow to make it? You would have to be faster than Light to even attempt an escape.
Yet something *does* escape the pull of a black hole. The supermassive black hole observed at the center of the galaxy emits streams of energy from its poles. Does not that make such streams at least faster than Light?
If I am wrong just say so. Actually I would appreciate if you could demystify some concepts.
(between zombie rabbits and ducks with mustaches I am going to have nightmares, I just know it)
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
I do not get it :-/Dinosawer wrote:That's the actual reason you can't escape a black hole, because moving outward would literally mean moving backwards in time.
I thought it was just a matter of velocity. If Light can not escape the gravitational pull does not it mean that Light is simply too slow to make it? You would have to be faster than Light to even attempt an escape.
Yet something *does* escape the pull of a black hole. The supermassive black hole observed at the center of the galaxy emits streams of energy from its poles. Does not that make such streams at least faster than Light?
If I am wrong just say so. Actually I would appreciate if you could demystify some concepts.
(between zombie rabbits and ducks with mustaches I am going to have nightmares, I just know it)
Post
Fri May 15, 2015 6:26 pm
#12
I hope that explains it; velocity and time and speed go very much hand in hand, especially in a black hole.
If you think that the ducks and rabbits and meerkat-shark hybrids are bad, try virus-obsessed artificial Lamprey that breath fire and play the eigenharp!
As for the escape thing, no it does not. It is slung around the black hole and shot in a certain direction the same way that we sling probes around planets (sort of), but never passes the event horizon. As far as I know. Dinosawer probably knows more about it than me.
Edit: Dinosawer, if I'm wrong please do correct me! The last thing I want to do is spread misinformation.
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
it's the same thing; if you moved faster than light, you'd move back in time, and because its impossible to go faster than light, you're doomed. And the reason that you'd have to go faster than light is because the only way to move backwards in the event horizon is to go back in time.fox wrote:I do not get it :-/Dinosawer wrote:That's the actual reason you can't escape a black hole, because moving outward would literally mean moving backwards in time.
I thought it was just a matter of velocity. If Light can not escape the gravitational pull does not it mean that Light is simply too slow to make it? You would have to be faster than Light to even attempt an escape.
Yet something *does* escape the pull of a black hole. The supermassive black hole observed at the center of the galaxy emits streams of energy from its poles. Does not that make such streams at least faster than Light?
If I am wrong just say so. Actually I would appreciate if you could demystify some concepts.
(between zombie rabbits and ducks with mustaches I am going to have nightmares, I just know it)
I hope that explains it; velocity and time and speed go very much hand in hand, especially in a black hole.
If you think that the ducks and rabbits and meerkat-shark hybrids are bad, try virus-obsessed artificial Lamprey that breath fire and play the eigenharp!
As for the escape thing, no it does not. It is slung around the black hole and shot in a certain direction the same way that we sling probes around planets (sort of), but never passes the event horizon. As far as I know. Dinosawer probably knows more about it than me.
Edit: Dinosawer, if I'm wrong please do correct me! The last thing I want to do is spread misinformation.
Destruction is never precise, Creation is a thought, Time is an illusion, and Chaos and Order are one and the same.
Post
Sat May 16, 2015 2:48 am
#13
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
No, that's correct. I'd like to add the following:
1. Both explanations are indeed equivalent. I prefer the dimension-switching one because the other one would lead you to believe that you could at least slow down your fall by strapping a large rocket to your back and pointing it outwards. If you do the (general relativistic) math however, it turns out that anything you do to try and slow your fall actually accelerates it.
2. The reason for this is the fact that stuff falling into a black hole do so in a sort of gigantic whirlpool of gas. Due to the extreme speed and friction in this gas it gets heated to a plasma. A plasma consists of electrically charged particles and thus generates a magnetic field when it rotates. A lot of tedious math shows that such a whirlpool will generate 2 jets by which particles will be blasted out of the whirlpool at gigantic speeds, like this: However, all this happens outside of the black hole. You often see artists depiction of those jets coming out of the black hole itself, but that's not accurate, they start around it.
1. Both explanations are indeed equivalent. I prefer the dimension-switching one because the other one would lead you to believe that you could at least slow down your fall by strapping a large rocket to your back and pointing it outwards. If you do the (general relativistic) math however, it turns out that anything you do to try and slow your fall actually accelerates it.
2. The reason for this is the fact that stuff falling into a black hole do so in a sort of gigantic whirlpool of gas. Due to the extreme speed and friction in this gas it gets heated to a plasma. A plasma consists of electrically charged particles and thus generates a magnetic field when it rotates. A lot of tedious math shows that such a whirlpool will generate 2 jets by which particles will be blasted out of the whirlpool at gigantic speeds, like this: However, all this happens outside of the black hole. You often see artists depiction of those jets coming out of the black hole itself, but that's not accurate, they start around it.
Warning: do not ask about physics unless you really want to know about physics.
The LT IRC / Alternate link || The REKT Wiki || PUDDING
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Post
Sat May 16, 2015 10:15 am
#14
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
Well, I'm glad I got that right. Black holes are some of the oddest phenomena... Star Trek should have done more with them.
Destruction is never precise, Creation is a thought, Time is an illusion, and Chaos and Order are one and the same.
Post
Sat May 16, 2015 4:29 pm
#15
Re: Travel INSIDE a Black Hole
Did someone mention ducks?
Basically, spacetime on its own is fairly nice. Mass makes spacetime go a bit funny. Lots of mass makes spacetime all screwed up.
I think explaining it as "two dimensions are switched" makes it sound like there's a magical point where they suddenly swap over, and that's not the case.
It's not so much a case of "suddenly the dimensions swap" so much that any amount of mass (and therefore gravity) skews spacetime - for example, an object otherwise stationary near (say) Earth will have its "4D velocity" (not the technical term) pointed towards Earth; the "future" is pulled away from a neutral, non-spatial position towards the Earth (very slightly), although the gravity is weak enough that applying forces can accelerate it away from Earth with no problems. So while many of its potential future paths may take it ploughing into the planet, many others take it away.
However, when this amount gets massive (pun intended), there cease to be future paths in which you move away from the centre of gravity. The "future" is pulled so much towards the black hole that any and every possible path you could take would result in you moving closer to the centre of the black hole. Your best measurement of time becomes your distance away from the centre.
The interesting thing about this is that it also helps explain relativity - with the "future" being pulled away from the time axis to the space axes, it's necessarily moving less along the time axis. Rather than thinking of time as something separate from space, everything in the universe is travelling at a fixed speed in spacetime - something stationary is moving at max speed through time, but by moving through space you have to move "away" from time somewhat; and to move at max speed through space you necessarily must stop moving through time.
I'll let the physicist improve on this, possibly by using the phrases "light cone" and "timelike curves".
Also causality is bunk. Doesn't exist, and makes things less fun if you assume it does.
Basically, spacetime on its own is fairly nice. Mass makes spacetime go a bit funny. Lots of mass makes spacetime all screwed up.
I think explaining it as "two dimensions are switched" makes it sound like there's a magical point where they suddenly swap over, and that's not the case.
It's not so much a case of "suddenly the dimensions swap" so much that any amount of mass (and therefore gravity) skews spacetime - for example, an object otherwise stationary near (say) Earth will have its "4D velocity" (not the technical term) pointed towards Earth; the "future" is pulled away from a neutral, non-spatial position towards the Earth (very slightly), although the gravity is weak enough that applying forces can accelerate it away from Earth with no problems. So while many of its potential future paths may take it ploughing into the planet, many others take it away.
However, when this amount gets massive (pun intended), there cease to be future paths in which you move away from the centre of gravity. The "future" is pulled so much towards the black hole that any and every possible path you could take would result in you moving closer to the centre of the black hole. Your best measurement of time becomes your distance away from the centre.
The interesting thing about this is that it also helps explain relativity - with the "future" being pulled away from the time axis to the space axes, it's necessarily moving less along the time axis. Rather than thinking of time as something separate from space, everything in the universe is travelling at a fixed speed in spacetime - something stationary is moving at max speed through time, but by moving through space you have to move "away" from time somewhat; and to move at max speed through space you necessarily must stop moving through time.
I'll let the physicist improve on this, possibly by using the phrases "light cone" and "timelike curves".
Also causality is bunk. Doesn't exist, and makes things less fun if you assume it does.
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