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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#31
Josh already said that robots would be in the game in the dev logs.

The idea there was that you could research better robots, but they wouldn't gain combat experience like "living" pilots would. Technically, we can have robots build robots, but at the moment, I don't know that it would be much different from having your regular workers build something. Construction of stations works by telling builders "I want a station here," and giving them some materials to work with. The builders use the materials until the materials are used up, the building is done, or the builders/station are destroyed.

Telling them to build 'x' number of ships/stations/whatever while you're gone won't be hard. As for infinite replication, just give them an arbitrarily large number of orders to fill while you're gone, and they'll work until
a) they reach the quota
b) they run out of material
c) someone finds and destroys them.

The real question is: "How hard is it going to be to set this up?" I can imagine using two or three "projects" to accomplish the construction of such a fleet. What I'm wondering, is how to incorporate new technology into the system automatically, and whether or not I'm going to need some "real-life" personnel to
do the research.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#32
I'd imagine it'd take some time, but fully automating something such as building V10 14-hull Diplethium Reactive Armour Combat Drones, with full automation of supply routes, supply lines, raw resources and the like, would be quite a worthwhile task.

That is, until your Combat Drones become redundant by being outdated.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#33
HKY09 wrote:I'd imagine it'd take some time, but fully automating something such as building V10 14-hull Diplethium Reactive Armour Combat Drones, with full automation of supply routes, supply lines, raw resources and the like, would be quite a worthwhile task.

That is, until your Combat Drones become redundant by being outdated.
They won't become outdated (at least not as quickly) if they have an "evolutionary" process (research, random mutation, etc.) where the technical details of the most successful strains are transmitted throughout the fleet and used throughout the fleet. Then again, you could just research and have all of your production units produce the new units and the new units produce the new construction units or something. That would work, and would probably be more simple than the Darwinian suggestion.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#34
Seryth Nortra wrote:
HKY09 wrote:I'd imagine it'd take some time, but fully automating something such as building V10 14-hull Diplethium Reactive Armour Combat Drones, with full automation of supply routes, supply lines, raw resources and the like, would be quite a worthwhile task.

That is, until your Combat Drones become redundant by being outdated.
They won't become outdated (at least not as quickly) if they have an "evolutionary" process (research, random mutation, etc.) where the technical details of the most successful strains are transmitted throughout the fleet and used throughout the fleet. Then again, you could just research and have all of your production units produce the new units and the new units produce the new construction units or something. That would work, and would probably be more simple than the Darwinian suggestion.
Wholly automating my empire? Sounds like it could be a very long task, but so very worth it if I can make that I am constantly upgrading, building, improving, expanding, deicmating... etc. Become the most powerful person in the universe backed by a robot conquering force.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#35
HKY09 wrote:
Seryth Nortra wrote:
HKY09 wrote:I'd imagine it'd take some time, but fully automating something such as building V10 14-hull Diplethium Reactive Armour Combat Drones, with full automation of supply routes, supply lines, raw resources and the like, would be quite a worthwhile task.

That is, until your Combat Drones become redundant by being outdated.
They won't become outdated (at least not as quickly) if they have an "evolutionary" process (research, random mutation, etc.) where the technical details of the most successful strains are transmitted throughout the fleet and used throughout the fleet. Then again, you could just research and have all of your production units produce the new units and the new units produce the new construction units or something. That would work, and would probably be more simple than the Darwinian suggestion.
Wholly automating my empire? Sounds like it could be a very long task, but so very worth it if I can make that I am constantly upgrading, building, improving, expanding, deicmating... etc. Become the most powerful person in the universe backed by a robot conquering force.
Then again, once you've made such an unstoppable force, your only problem is design. That's it. That's all. Just designing it. So maybe there should be some limitations to make it more fun for the player. I mean, what's the point if all you're doing is getting the resources for designing, and then designing? I'd think that there should be a sort of ultra-high level strategy mode where you decide what system a portion your fleet goes to next, but don't have to come up with strategy within the system itself; directing the war, not the battles. Or maybe there would be other limitations. It just probably isn't going to be prudent to have a way, in the game, to create an unstoppable force by investing in nothing but research, and then creating a few "seeds" for your army.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#36
Seryth Nortra wrote: Then again, once you've made such an unstoppable force, your only problem is design. That's it. That's all. Just designing it. So maybe there should be some limitations to make it more fun for the player. I mean, what's the point if all you're doing is getting the resources for designing, and then designing? I'd think that there should be a sort of ultra-high level strategy mode where you decide what system a portion your fleet goes to next, but don't have to come up with strategy within the system itself; directing the war, not the battles. Or maybe there would be other limitations. It just probably isn't going to be prudent to have a way, in the game, to create an unstoppable force by investing in nothing but research, and then creating a few "seeds" for your army.
no force. don't dumb down the players experience, as the AI can still do the same thing, but since LT is a multi-multi genre game, it could be possible to ignore all these happenings.
Once again, there should be no limits, because that inherently contradicts limit theory.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#37
HKY09 wrote:
Seryth Nortra wrote: Then again, once you've made such an unstoppable force, your only problem is design. That's it. That's all. Just designing it. So maybe there should be some limitations to make it more fun for the player. I mean, what's the point if all you're doing is getting the resources for designing, and then designing? I'd think that there should be a sort of ultra-high level strategy mode where you decide what system a portion your fleet goes to next, but don't have to come up with strategy within the system itself; directing the war, not the battles. Or maybe there would be other limitations. It just probably isn't going to be prudent to have a way, in the game, to create an unstoppable force by investing in nothing but research, and then creating a few "seeds" for your army.
no force. don't dumb down the players experience, as the AI can still do the same thing, but since LT is a multi-multi genre game, it could be possible to ignore all these happenings.
Once again, there should be no limits, because that inherently contradicts limit theory.
Yes, but there should be rules. I mean, you can't have instantly teleporting ships - at least, not without research and resource-gathering; you can't make megastructures; (as far as I know. If this is true, it doesn't make sense, and I hope someone mods this in.) you can't have an instant kill tool. There do have to be rules, and if it's possible to make it just a game of design with the ability to be OP at the same time, than some AI will find that out, and it might ruin the player's experience, especially if they don't want to play a game of design, even if that's necessary to combat the AI's exponential growth. That's why there has to be some sort of limit on this, or at least a way to make it not just be a game of design; if someone wants to just design, that would be okay. But it shouldn't have to be that way for every player who wants to be able to beat an AI that's taken that route.

Also, please clarify the first two sentences in your post; they don't make much sense.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#38
Seryth Nortra wrote:
HKY09 wrote:
Seryth Nortra wrote: Then again, once you've made such an unstoppable force, your only problem is design. That's it. That's all. Just designing it. So maybe there should be some limitations to make it more fun for the player. I mean, what's the point if all you're doing is getting the resources for designing, and then designing? I'd think that there should be a sort of ultra-high level strategy mode where you decide what system a portion your fleet goes to next, but don't have to come up with strategy within the system itself; directing the war, not the battles. Or maybe there would be other limitations. It just probably isn't going to be prudent to have a way, in the game, to create an unstoppable force by investing in nothing but research, and then creating a few "seeds" for your army.
no force. don't dumb down the players experience, as the AI can still do the same thing, but since LT is a multi-multi genre game, it could be possible to ignore all these happenings.
Once again, there should be no limits, because that inherently contradicts limit theory.
Yes, but there should be rules. I mean, you can't have instantly teleporting ships - at least, not without research and resource-gathering; you can't make megastructures; (as far as I know. If this is true, it doesn't make sense, and I hope someone mods this in.) you can't have an instant kill tool. There do have to be rules, and if it's possible to make it just a game of design with the ability to be OP at the same time, than some AI will find that out, and it might ruin the player's experience, especially if they don't want to play a game of design, even if that's necessary to combat the AI's exponential growth. That's why there has to be some sort of limit on this, or at least a way to make it not just be a game of design; if someone wants to just design, that would be okay. But it shouldn't have to be that way for every player who wants to be able to beat an AI that's taken that route.

Also, please clarify the first two sentences in your post; they don't make much sense.
What I'm trying to say is that there are so many options inLT of what you can do to advance yourself in the game that might not necessarily revolve around building an automated empire, which itself would be a fairly monumental task to perfect (it is no small matter, conquering the universe).
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#39
HKY09 wrote:
Seryth Nortra wrote:
HKY09 wrote: no force. don't dumb down the players experience, as the AI can still do the same thing, but since LT is a multi-multi genre game, it could be possible to ignore all these happenings.
Once again, there should be no limits, because that inherently contradicts limit theory.
Yes, but there should be rules. I mean, you can't have instantly teleporting ships - at least, not without research and resource-gathering; you can't make megastructures; (as far as I know. If this is true, it doesn't make sense, and I hope someone mods this in.) you can't have an instant kill tool. There do have to be rules, and if it's possible to make it just a game of design with the ability to be OP at the same time, than some AI will find that out, and it might ruin the player's experience, especially if they don't want to play a game of design, even if that's necessary to combat the AI's exponential growth. That's why there has to be some sort of limit on this, or at least a way to make it not just be a game of design; if someone wants to just design, that would be okay. But it shouldn't have to be that way for every player who wants to be able to beat an AI that's taken that route.

Also, please clarify the first two sentences in your post; they don't make much sense.
What I'm trying to say is that there are so many options inLT of what you can do to advance yourself in the game that might not necessarily revolve around building an automated empire, which itself would be a fairly monumental task to perfect (it is no small matter, conquering the universe).
True. Then again, once you've made the perfect bot, all you have to do is plant a seed, and you've "won." As long as the seed doesn't fail, there's very little else to do. And I can't see any method that could effectively combat autowars except for containing them with "normal" units and then planting a seed of your own, containing the enemy spread long enough for your own seed to grow to the same or greater size without being overtaken in its growth by the enemy, which would result in defeat; a monumental task. My point is that we'd want to keep things interesting for the player, and not have an easy way to "win," in the way of being nearly unbeatable. Also, if an AI were to do this... good luck defeating that! It would be nearly impossible. So, there'd have to be limits, for the player's sake in two ways: so that the player doesn't get bored, and so that the AI doesn't become nearly unbeatable. I'm sure that modders could get rid of the limits, or that they could be disabled by the player, but they'd have to at least be an option.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#40
Seryth Nortra wrote:True. Then again, once you've made the perfect bot, all you have to do is plant a seed, and you've "won." As long as the seed doesn't fail, there's very little else to do. And I can't see any method that could effectively combat autowars except for containing them with "normal" units and then planting a seed of your own, containing the enemy spread long enough for your own seed to grow to the same or greater size without being overtaken in its growth by the enemy, which would result in defeat; a monumental task. My point is that we'd want to keep things interesting for the player, and not have an easy way to "win," in the way of being nearly unbeatable. Also, if an AI were to do this... good luck defeating that! It would be nearly impossible. So, there'd have to be limits, for the player's sake in two ways: so that the player doesn't get bored, and so that the AI doesn't become nearly unbeatable. I'm sure that modders could get rid of the limits, or that they could be disabled by the player, but they'd have to at least be an option.
I don't understand what you mean.
You have to find, or design, a blueprint for an above-average combat drone.
Then, you need to make the drone.
Then you need to secure the resources for that drone, while setting up automation mines.
Then you need to set up a proper command structure for your drones to follow.
Then a whole bunch of other stuff.

The process can be very gruelling and still take a massive amount of time to accomplish. Plus, there are players who might not like the path of war automation. To disregard or limit players that do is just reckless and ultimately not even worth the trouble.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#41
HKY09 wrote: You have to find, or design, a blueprint for an above-average combat drone.
Then, you need to make the drone.
Then you need to secure the resources for that drone, while setting up automation mines.
Then you need to set up a proper command structure for your drones to follow.
Then a whole bunch of other stuff.

The process can be very gruelling and still take a massive amount of time to accomplish. Plus, there are players who might not like the path of war automation. To disregard or limit players that do is just reckless and ultimately not even worth the trouble.

I dont think that any of those steps would take any really blocking amount of time, and many of those steps could run in parallel.

Nothing of that would stop the AI from doing it and being unstoppable before the player even enters the universe.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#42
HKY09 wrote:
Seryth Nortra wrote:True. Then again, once you've made the perfect bot, all you have to do is plant a seed, and you've "won." As long as the seed doesn't fail, there's very little else to do. And I can't see any method that could effectively combat autowars except for containing them with "normal" units and then planting a seed of your own, containing the enemy spread long enough for your own seed to grow to the same or greater size without being overtaken in its growth by the enemy, which would result in defeat; a monumental task. My point is that we'd want to keep things interesting for the player, and not have an easy way to "win," in the way of being nearly unbeatable. Also, if an AI were to do this... good luck defeating that! It would be nearly impossible. So, there'd have to be limits, for the player's sake in two ways: so that the player doesn't get bored, and so that the AI doesn't become nearly unbeatable. I'm sure that modders could get rid of the limits, or that they could be disabled by the player, but they'd have to at least be an option.
I don't understand what you mean.
You have to find, or design, a blueprint for an above-average combat drone.
Then, you need to make the drone.
Then you need to secure the resources for that drone, while setting up automation mines.
Then you need to set up a proper command structure for your drones to follow.
Then a whole bunch of other stuff.

The process can be very gruelling and still take a massive amount of time to accomplish. Plus, there are players who might not like the path of war automation. To disregard or limit players that do is just reckless and ultimately not even worth the trouble.
Well, I know that some people won't like war automation; that's why autowars have to be limited. It's an exponential growth factor; it doesn't really matter how many resources you have, all you have to do is research and design and plant a seed, and so long as someone out there didn't plant a seed before you, your numbers will be far superior, and you're almost guaranteed to win. Especially if you automate strategy and don't have to be there every second of the day. My point is that if the AI does this, and a player wants to defeat the AI, that player, who doesn't want to do this, will have to, and thus there have to be limits so that that player doesn't have to do this, and so that you can't easily beat the game with your automaton fleet. It has to be balanced. All paths have to have equal benefits and drawbacks, more or less. That's why there has to be limits, or at least major weaknesses.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#43
Well, I know that some people won't like war automation; that's why autowars have to be limited. It's an exponential growth factor; it doesn't really matter how many resources you have, all you have to do is research and design and plant a seed, and so long as someone out there didn't plant a seed before you, your numbers will be far superior,
...unless, by starting early, they gimped themselves by using older, slower construction models. All you, or anyone else, has to do is build a faster construction module.
and you're almost guaranteed to win. Especially if you automate strategy and don't have to be there every second of the day. My point is that if the AI does this, and a player wants to defeat the AI, that player, who doesn't want to do this, will have to, and thus there have to be limits so that that player doesn't have to do this, and so that you can't easily beat the game with your automaton fleet. It has to be balanced. All paths have to have equal benefits and drawbacks, more or less. That's why there has to be limits, or at least major weaknesses.
Unless you take my suggestion to limit the evolution of AI fleets to only what they manage to salvage. If technology evolves, the AI has to work to catch up. The AI will always be behind. With machine learning, you can sabotage its growth and tactics for later on. All you have to do is pretend to evolve slowly by poking with old ships only to do a clean sweep with a modern fleet.

Also, unless the AI cannibalizes its old ships to make new ones, it will always have a bunch of older ships in the fleet. Those ships would make for easy pickings, wouldn't they? But let's say your AI fleet does cannibalize most of the outdated ships. Then, the fleet may be strong, but relatively small in number. It also can't be any more advanced than whatever you're throwing at it.

If you're out of money and the AI got your only really good ship, yeah. You might have a problem. But seriously, that's the case with any race more advanced than you. If you really want fewer aggressive races, pick a different seed. Also, one of the trade-offs of having robots control your ships, is that they have to be replaced to see improvements in pilot performance.

TL;DR:
1) Slow construction builds slowly. Just build faster.
2) Make AI such that if they only see week fleets, they'll be weak.
3) If you're that worried, pick a different seed.
We noticed that this thread got a little side-tracked into a conversation about eating spaghetti with a spoon. We do enjoy our fair share of italian food, but please remember to keep discussion on-topic when posting on the forums.
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Re: Self-replicating Robots: Astrochicken, Autowars, and Bey

#44
Exponential growth says no to your "build faster" idea, especially when the other has approximately the same tech as you have.

Eveb when he started with lower tech, he can upgrade to the higher ones fast and then he has high numbers and medium tech level

When you start building your replicatorfleet when the other had a bit of advance timewise over you... you already lost.

Poking it with old ships also doesnt help when he has 100 times the ships you have, regardless of any technological advantage you may have.
Also as long as you dont have crushing advantage from the beginning, the enemy will build similar ships as you.
If he has 10 or 20 high tech ships vs your 30 doesnt change the outcome if he has 100 low tech ships as support.

The catch up game will always screw you over, as by the time you have built a few ships, he will upgrade a part of his facilities and crush you with sheer industrial output.

If you want we can play a round of supreme commander together, but i get a headstart of half an hour and then we can see how your theory fares.

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