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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#46
Hardenberg wrote: And again: The Jumpdrive isn't designed to be an exploration tool. Exploration follows the jumpgate and wormhole network, as does the actual system generation.
In principle, there should be no problem using a JD to reach a system which is not connected by JG; the only limiting factor is fuel. Hence it is perfectly suited for exploration as long as the ship is equipped for the journey. If the intent of procedural generation is to ensure all systems have a JG then that is a redundant point, but it does mean that a JG is not required for exploration. I can certainly see the attraction in having backwaters and isolated areas without JGs, so I'd advocate that if feasible.
getting back to where you were two days ago and build your first factories shouldn't take another two days.
If you choose to build in backwaters, maybe it should. On the other hand, it could be possible to add JGs or ferries, thereby enabling fast travel to a previously isolated system. Whether they must be added by the player or will ensue as part of a dynamic galaxy is worth considering.
Hyperspace as a flyable region.
As much as I'd like to see that, I'm not sure if it's feasible, given the technical limitations (each solar system being a distinctive "room"). You would need to design the navigable hyperspace as yet another room/"solar system", which wouldn't really work with a potentially unlimited number of systems which need to be represented within said room.
What I reckoned was that it could be a dynamically generated non-persistent room, populated by the player and a bunch of beacons. Maybe some random features too.

When the player appears he is at the centre of the room, and the nearest beacons would also be positioned. There would need to be a sensible limit of beacons, say only those within twice the ship's range, i.e. no need to include a large number. In some ways it would be like a flyable 3D map of the stellar vicinity. If there are meant to be JG and ferry routes then suitable NPC vessels could also be positioned, travelling in straight lines between the appropriate beacons. Plus some other private ships using their own JDs. Traffic. When the player drops back to normal space, the room and all its contents are simply deleted. As it's a single player game, there would never need to be more than one such room in existence.

In terms of mechanics it would behave pretty similarly to a normal room, though different physics and visual effects could be used. The only slightly complicating factor I can think of is if JGs and ferries run to schedules, they'd need to be positioned and given velocities consistent with that. Should still be doable, though.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#47
JabbleWok wrote:
Hardenberg wrote: And again: The Jumpdrive isn't designed to be an exploration tool. Exploration follows the jumpgate and wormhole network, as does the actual system generation.
In principle, there should be no problem using a JD to reach a system which is not connected by JG; the only limiting factor is fuel. Hence it is perfectly suited for exploration as long as the ship is equipped for the journey. If the intent of procedural generation is to ensure all systems have a JG then that is a redundant point, but it does mean that a JG is not required for exploration. I can certainly see the attraction in having backwaters and isolated areas without JGs, so I'd advocate that if feasible.
I think the point Hardenberg was trying to get across was that it should not be possible to reach unconnected systems unless you have already gotten there manually yourself first.

The analogy I'd like to make would be utilizing the industrialcraft mod for minecraft where you could actually build teleporters. You can't exactly just teleport to anywhere on the map. You'd still have to walk X distance, then build a teleporter there before you can instantly warp between the two. Same ideology here.
JabbleWok wrote:
Hardenberg wrote:Getting back to where you were two days ago and build your first factories shouldn't take another two days.
If you choose to build in backwaters, maybe it should. On the other hand, it could be possible to add JGs or ferries, thereby enabling fast travel to a previously isolated system. Whether they must be added by the player or will ensue as part of a dynamic galaxy is worth considering.
I personally would want to build in a backwaters area and establish trade all on my own without interruption from other factions. I'd want to do this at some point, and I don't want to accidentally lose where I'm at if I die. This has happened to me in minecraft before, and it has pissed me off immensely.
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#48
DWMagus wrote:I think the point Hardenberg was trying to get across was that it should not be possible to reach unconnected systems unless you have already gotten there manually yourself first.
I completely agree with that principle, but what would 'manually' mean, if not by JD?
The analogy I'd like to make would be utilizing the industrialcraft mod for minecraft where you could actually build teleporters. You can't exactly just teleport to anywhere on the map. You'd still have to walk X distance, then build a teleporter there before you can instantly warp between the two. Same ideology here.
Because each system exists in its own "room", there is no way to manually fly (through normal space) from one to another. Some sort of jump/FTL technology is required, which would mean either a JD or using a pre-existing JG/ferry. If it's not connected, there will be no JG or ferry so JD is the only option. Unless there are other means of FTL travel i don't know about?

Using the hyperspace/beacon idea I mentioned, an unconnected system without a beacon would entail risks, but such is exploration. If you start to develop the system then you can add your own beacon at some point, and I suggest establish a JG/ferry service too. Until there is a beacon or safe FTL travel, it will remain risky so you should be prepared.

Think of nautical exploration, where you find an island in waters that may be treacherous. Until you build a lighthouse they will remain treacherous. Making it safe would be one of the infrastructual advances open to you, and may indeed be the first thing you choose to do.
I personally would want to build in a backwaters area and establish trade all on my own without interruption from other factions. I'd want to do this at some point, and I don't want to accidentally lose where I'm at if I die. This has happened to me in minecraft before, and it has pissed me off immensely.
Me too! Yeah, the saves issue has had a lot of discussion - I'm not sure what's the consensus just now.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#50
Katorone wrote:Perhaps you can travel to the edge of a known system, do a deep scan and jump a distance ahead? With decent scanners you're sure to not bump into any planets etc. And you can look pretty far too.
With the flyable hyperspace idea, the hazards will be in the extra dimensions that separate the two spacetime regions. As such, probably the most appropriate use of a scanner would be to check:

a) the route to hyperspace from your current location and
b) the route from hyperspace to the normal spacetime region.

So yes, the hazards could be checked before you jump, if you have the technology. If conditions are too hazardous, wait a while 'til they improve. I'd suggest this should be expensive kit and not immediately available to the player i.e. there should be risks. BTW we're already suggesting that you should only be able to jump to/from from the extremities of a system, so people can't fly in vast battlefleets to destroy installations without warning.

Another development could be that beacons work at different signal strengths. Thus a cheap, basic beacon is only visible in hyperspace if you're quite close, but the most important thing is it guides you to/from normal space safely. The big public beacons owned by corporations would have a much stronger signal, visible from much further away. That way the cost of establishing a beacon would determine its signal strength. If you're setting up infrastructure in a system you've discovered, a cheap, weak beacon would be all you need as long as you know its location in hyperspace.

This would highlight the need for navigation information just to be able to fly to a weaker beacon's location, and enhance the role of navigation charts (uploaded to your nav system) to be able to find them. Think of the importance of rutters in ye olden days - this could be similar. Such information could be bought, captured, be based on rumour, etc.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#51
JabbleWok wrote:
Hardenberg wrote:
JabbleWok wrote:Hyperspace as a flyable region.
As much as I'd like to see that, I'm not sure if it's feasible, given the technical limitations (each solar system being a distinctive "room"). You would need to design the navigable hyperspace as yet another room/"solar system", which wouldn't really work with a potentially unlimited number of systems which need to be represented within said room.
What I reckoned was that it could be a dynamically generated non-persistent room, populated by the player and a bunch of beacons. Maybe some random features too.
That's basically how interstellar space works in Elite, where you would occasionally find yourself stuck midway between the system you started your jump and the system you wanted to jump to (the dreaded mis-jump). Once in interstellar space, you also would find yourself surrounded by scary aliens who were out there to kill you. :twisted:

There would be no stellar bodies in interstellar space, and there would be no way to reach another system, no matter how long you flew in one direction. The only way out of the "room" would be another jump to one of the adjacent systems, provided you had enough fuel left for that, and you survived long enough to initiate a jump out. So, interstellar space was a generic "room", no matter between which two systems you were supposed to be. In the highly moddable Oolite it can (and has been) customized a great deal, of course.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#52
JabbleWok wrote:
Hardenberg wrote:
JabbleWok wrote:Hyperspace as a flyable region.
As much as I'd like to see that, I'm not sure if it's feasible, given the technical limitations (each solar system being a distinctive "room"). You would need to design the navigable hyperspace as yet another room/"solar system", which wouldn't really work with a potentially unlimited number of systems which need to be represented within said room.
What I reckoned was that it could be a dynamically generated non-persistent room, populated by the player and a bunch of beacons. Maybe some random features too.
This makes me think about the hyperspace-space in Babylon 5. Regardless of me being a fan of that show, I'd like a hyperspace mechanic like this. A compressed space/time continuum where beacons showed where the hyperspace portals were.
In Babylon 5 there were huge deep space explorer vessels that would go out and map unknown space. Jump gates would be constructed and their entering point in hyperspace would be linked through beacons to other jump gates/exits.

Gameplay wise however, having an extra dimension that speeds up traveling isn't much different from having space lanes that offer the same acceleration.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#53
Commander McLane wrote:
What I reckoned was that it could be a dynamically generated non-persistent room, populated by the player and a bunch of beacons. Maybe some random features too.
That's basically how interstellar space works in Elite, where you would occasionally find yourself stuck midway between the system you started your jump and the system you wanted to jump to (the dreaded mis-jump). Once in interstellar space, you also would find yourself surrounded by scary aliens who were out there to kill you. :twisted:
In Elite, as far as I remember (and it's been a while :)) there was no separate flyble hyperspace; jumps were one-shot affairs that left you at a normal spatial destination, whether in a system or deep space. I understand deep space was indeed implemented as an empty room. However it's similar in that a mis-jump could end you up in such an empty room.

The idea of flyable hyperspace is that every star system maps to a particular point in it, and your jump takes you between normal space and that mapping point of hyperspace. Jumping without a beacon, the risks are:

a) to hyperspace, a mis-jump could position you some way from where your start system maps to.
b) from hyperspace, a mis-jump could place you in deep 'normal' space i.e. an empty room.

Hyperspace itself would be a flyable room, where you could fly between these mapping points. Once there you can try to jump back to normal space. If there's a beacon at that point (or you have a timed key, mentioned above), it's automatic and safe. Without a beacon the risks are as described, though extra equipment may reduce them. Hyperspace is not the same as interstellar space as it refers to a separate region of spacetime dimensionally separated from 'normal' spacetime. All of hyperspace maps somewhere; either a specific star system, or a catch-all empty 'deep space' room.

I'd also suggest that there is some sort of (very expensive) recovery service for if you're ever stranded, whether in deep space or hyperspace.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#54
JabbleWok wrote: I completely agree with that principle, but what would 'manually' mean, if not by JD?
The only way I can think of 'manually' would be to navigate via JG or wormhole until you reach your destination. This method only really works if ALL systems are interconnected if at least by something (whether it be a wormhole or JG). That's what I meant by 'manually'.

Flying to the edge of a box and then doing a deep scan? I find that a bit hard to swallow considering you're trying to scan something light years away and you've only traveled a couple au closer to scan it. The distance you travel is negligible to the distance you're trying to scan. +1 for thinking outside the box though. ;)
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#55
Right now we already have the tools to examine stars and planets lightyears away. We can guestimate the mass of the stars and planets and detect how they move. In the future this information could be gotten easier and more accurate by the advance in technology and the possibility to measure a star system from more than one location.
With this information it wouldn't be very hard to extrapolate an area inside (or just outside) that system where it would be safe to jump to. For our own solar system I'd jump in near jupiter. It's a huge planet and an asteroid magnet. Meaning there wouldn't be any space debris nearby. Catastrophic events that would have happened inside the system during the lightyears the information traveled would probably not have a huge effect on planets like jupiter. Supernovae wouldn't be a factor, unless stars can be destroyed by technology.

I would hope that jumps like these are made by special ships equipped for the task. Carrying a huge power generator that can supply enough energy to punch a hole into space-time and focus that wormhole to a specific location. When this ship reaches its destination it could deploy a warp gate (connected to hyperspace or another warp gate).

The technological requirements would be astounding. But it makes sense that only someone capable of investing in such technology is also capable of claiming a sector for themselves, or selling access to factions.

The reason to travel to the edge of the box is not to close the distance, but to make sure there aren't any celestial bodies between the neighbouring sector and you. Making sure you have a clear line-of-sight.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#56
DWMagus wrote:I think the point Hardenberg was trying to get across was that it should not be possible to reach unconnected systems unless you have already gotten there manually yourself first.

The analogy I'd like to make would be utilizing the industrialcraft mod for minecraft where you could actually build teleporters. You can't exactly just teleport to anywhere on the map. You'd still have to walk X distance, then build a teleporter there before you can instantly warp between the two. Same ideology here.
Yes, and no. While I agree that it's mostly designed as a shortcut between the places you have been, there's also another option: You can see other faction's beacons as well, and use them, even if you haven't been to that particular system yet. (Detection and jump range limitiations might apply here, though.) This, of course, will move a rather expensive ship + escort into the middle of what might be extremely hostile territory or a faction war in full swing. But hey, what's life without a little excitement now and then? :D


DWMagus wrote:
JabbleWok wrote:
Hardenberg wrote:Getting back to where you were two days ago and build your first factories shouldn't take another two days.
If you choose to build in backwaters, maybe it should. On the other hand, it could be possible to add JGs or ferries, thereby enabling fast travel to a previously isolated system. Whether they must be added by the player or will ensue as part of a dynamic galaxy is worth considering.
I personally would want to build in a backwaters area and establish trade all on my own without interruption from other factions. I'd want to do this at some point, and I don't want to accidentally lose where I'm at if I die. This has happened to me in minecraft before, and it has pissed me off immensely.
I would define a "backwater" as a group of largely unsettled systems that are only connected by "natural" wormholes and lack trade lanes, as opposed to a civilized cluster that's brimming with gates and lanes and stations.
Maybe you could tweak detection ranges: A Jumpgate would probably transmit its position across the system to ensure smooth flow of traffic, while you would only be able to detect a wormhole up close, or with specialized sensors. For convenience's sake, however, the wormholes should be in the vicinity of a stellar object or some other conspicuous area (like dab in the middle of a large nebula). Looking for the literal needle in a huge, empty, cold and pitch-dark universe haystack is incredibly unfun.
(Evochron for example is pretty notorious for hiding it's hidden stuff so far out that you need to spend hours/days of systematically mapping what is basically featureless void.)
The player should at least get a hint that something interesting might be there.
Hardenberg was my name
And Terra was my nation
Deep space is my dwelling place
The stars my destination
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#57
My 2 cents:

A fixed linked jump gate to jump gate is a recipe for disaster, as seen in X3. The only times I was truly afraid during my DiD games was when travelling through gates.
Having two sets of gates (one for each direction) would solve this more or less. But I tend to fly in the first portal I see, not really minding the direction of the traffic.
Instead, I propose a mechanic of opening a hyperspace window to another approximate location. Small ships would use gates for this that would dial to an approximate location on request. Large ships could open their own window, but when they enter it, it closes. Advanced technology would allow you to build ships that can create jump windows and keep them open for a fleet to pass through.

Personally, I'm a big fan of a hyperspace dimension, where you'd have to travel a limited distance to have crossed a few lightyears in the known universe. It seems to me that this way offers the most diverse gameplay. If you'd be able to jump from gate to gate, or point to point, then trading/piracy would become extremely fast-paced. Having to actually travel (but not excessively) between sectors would give you more time and gameplay possibilities.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#58
Hardenberg wrote:Yes, and no. While I agree that it's mostly designed as a shortcut between the places you have been, there's also another option: You can see other faction's beacons as well, and use them
In the hyperspace scenario you can always see them, but you can't automatically use them - it's by request only. Normally this would be granted, but if you're regarded as hostile or undesirable you'll be refused. You can still drop down to normal space, but you have to do it the risky, unguided way. Even if you manage it unscathed, will there be a heavily beweaponed welcoming committee waiting for you? :o
This, of course, will move a rather expensive ship + escort into the middle of what might be extremely hostile territory or a faction war in full swing. But hey, what's life without a little excitement now and then? :D
If you're refused entry that would be the cue for a prudent pilot to head elsewhere. But prudence doesn't usually make for the most interesting of games...
I would define a "backwater" as a group of largely unsettled systems that are only connected by "natural" wormholes and lack trade lanes, as opposed to a civilized cluster that's brimming with gates and lanes and stations.
I'm proposing no natural connectivity other than via hyperspace. Any safe and convenient travel would require infrastructure to be added i.e. JG or ferry.
Katorone wrote:I propose a mechanic of opening a hyperspace window to another approximate location.
Do you mean a safe passage to hyperspace, or all the way to another system i.e. its normal space?
Last edited by JabbleWok on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#59
JabbleWok wrote:
Katorone wrote:I propose a mechanic of opening a hyperspace window to another approximate location.
Do you mean a safe passage to hyperspace, or all the way to another system i.e. its normal space?
Ideally, a passage to hyperspace. What I wanted to enforce was the "approximate" part. In X3 it happens way to often that ships jump in on top of each other, with a lot of chaos and explosions as a result.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Is this the right room for a jump gate?

#60
Katorone wrote:Ideally, a passage to hyperspace. What I wanted to enforce was the "approximate" part. In X3 it happens way to often that ships jump in on top of each other, with a lot of chaos and explosions as a result.
I suppose there could be an algorithm that ensures there's a certain separation even if two ships were to jump simultaneously. However, what are the chances of simultaneous jumps? How much jump traffic in/out of one system are we talking?

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