FREESPACE 2 FOR THE WIN!!!Cornflakes_91 wrote:
--IronDuke
FREESPACE 2 FOR THE WIN!!!Cornflakes_91 wrote:
While of course we are talking sci-fi guns, and anything is mutable, I do hope you are aware that most guns today cannot swap in a bigger propellant charge in the same gun? The cartridge doesn't fit if it changes size. You can rarely alter the ammunition significantly for a single gun.Cornflakes_91 wrote:a short barrel gun will always have a low muzzle velocity and low accuracy, but you can modify those by swapping out the ammunition (use bigger propellant charges)
And thats why theres totally no HE, HEAT, APFSDS, things like the M1028 or the MPAT round variations, the M982, variable propellant charges for modern cannons, ACP, FMJ, fragmenting rounds and so on for pistols and rifles, buckshot, birdshot, flechette, single slug/arrow for shotguns, HE, smoke, and so forth ammunitions for grenade lauchers....MyrddinE wrote:While of course we are talking sci-fi guns, and anything is mutable, I do hope you are aware that most guns today cannot swap in a bigger propellant charge in the same gun? The cartridge doesn't fit if it changes size. You can rarely alter the ammunition significantly for a single gun.
i definitely wouldnt make it anything like the jungle of modern ammunition formats, a simple, one dimensional size system.MyrddinE wrote: Are you arguing that the game should model launchers and gun barrels independently of missiles and cartridges? Because I think that's misguided. It's excessive complexity. A player is not going to keep track of which caliber bullets their gun fires or which size missiles their launcher fits (other than possibly 'small, medium, large, huge' tied to ship class).
and i tend to find the ammunition systems in those games bland and one-dimensionalMyrddinE wrote: In nearly every sci-fi game you just choose your ammo, and the launcher / gun is assumed to be a universal 'one size fits all'. This is because keeping track of the various types of ammunition is complicated enough.
EVE, Freespace, Elite Dangerous, the X series.MyrddinE wrote:I don't think you can point to a single space shooter that limited which ammunition you could fire based on the gun barrel.
Freespace 2 doesn't have ammunition; the guns and ammo exist as a single unit, so we're back to all of the items I listed (Rate of fire, Salvo length, cost, volume, etc) being relevant.Cornflakes_91 wrote:EVE, Freespace, Elite Dangerous, the X series.MyrddinE wrote:I don't think you can point to a single space shooter that limited which ammunition you could fire based on the gun barrel.
Actually you are wrong about EVE, both the weapon, and specific ammunition selected make a difference in range, rate-of-fire, damage, falloff, tracking speed, type of damage, and (in the case of missiles) functionality.MyrddinE wrote:Freespace 2 doesn't have ammunition; the guns and ammo exist as a single unit, so we're back to all of the items I listed (Rate of fire, Salvo length, cost, volume, etc) being relevant.Cornflakes_91 wrote:EVE, Freespace, Elite Dangerous, the X series.MyrddinE wrote:I don't think you can point to a single space shooter that limited which ammunition you could fire based on the gun barrel.
Eve does not have different projectile barrels... it just has four size categories tied to the ship class, and a fighter class projectile cannon can fire any fighter class ammo. This is exactly what I described in my post. Again, since the only thing that changes is the ammo, all the items I listed are relevant.
Elite Dangerous does have ammunition, but guns cannot fire multiple kinds. A type 1 cannon just fires type 1 ammunition which is auto-refilled for you at a station. Again, since you can only choose the gun and not the ammo, every item I listed is relevant.
X3 is like Elite Dangerous, with some weapons having ammo but you can't choose the ammo.
So in every single game you mentioned, you can either choose the ammo or the gun, but never both. In other words, you only need to look at one list to see the stats of your weapon choices. And in every game above, your choice (of gun or ammo) determines all the characteristics of the weapon. None of them combine the characteristics of the gun with separate characteristics of ammo to create a combined weapon value.
The same is true of missiles... in every game, you don't choose the launcher you just choose the missile, and that determines all the characteristics of the weapon.
Your insistence on separating out the delivery mechanism from the ammunition may make sense in real life, but is an unnecessary complication in a game. Even Eve, by far the most complicated space sim ever created, doesn't have the barrel modify the performance of the ammunition.
except it does.MyrddinE wrote:Eve does not have different projectile barrels... it just has four size categories tied to the ship class, and a fighter class projectile cannon can fire any fighter class ammo. This is exactly what I described in my post. Again, since the only thing that changes is the ammo, all the items I listed are relevant.
Your insistence on separating out the delivery mechanism from the ammunition may make sense in real life, but is an unnecessary complication in a game. Even Eve, by far the most complicated space sim ever created, doesn't have the barrel modify the performance of the ammunition.
and with freespace and x you chose the launcher, albeit its included with the ship.MyrddinE wrote:X3 is like Elite Dangerous, with some weapons having ammo but you can't choose the ammo.
Cornflakes, what Josh is proposing in that video is a missile launcher which launches a variety of missiles. So one launcher fits all missiles. While I'm not opposed to a handful of different missile launchers, I'd like to see a function for each type of launcher which adds variety to game-play. I don't want to see launchers of different sizes which perform the same exact function as smaller launchers. The reason for this is that it simply clutters the market and makes it easier to make a mistake when purchasing a missile or launcher for a specific ship.Cornflakes_91 wrote:Except it does.MyrddinE wrote: Your insistence on separating out the delivery mechanism from the ammunition may make sense in real life, but is an unnecessary complication in a game. Even Eve, by far the most complicated space sim ever created, doesn't have the barrel modify the performance of the ammunition.
Different weapons have different performance characteristics, and the ammunition loaded modifies that characteristics.
the guns have values for range and damage multipliers, ammunition has damage values and range multipliers, both together result in the final range and damage values.
which is all im saying, both factors determine the end result.
and with freespace and x you chose the launcher, albeit its included with the ship.MyrddinE wrote:X3 is like Elite Dangerous, with some weapons having ammo but you can't choose the ammo.
not all ships can launch all types of missles.
if you want to launch tsunami bombs, you are not going to do that with an apollo fighter.
The point that other games havent done something isnt an argument against doing it ourselves.
And in the end. josh seems to disagree with you
edit:
theres also independence war 2, which has separated launchers and missles.
also: gunship apocalypse
im also pretty sure that i played different games which had things like x2,x3,x4 missle hardpoints as equipment available in addition to different missle types.
edit: also, what about non-space-shooters?
STALKER, Crysis, World of Tanks, all have changeable ammunition types for their weapons.
BFett wrote: Cornflakes, what Josh is proposing in that video is a missile launcher which launches a variety of missiles. So one launcher fits all missiles. While I'm not opposed to a handful of different missile launchers, I'd like to see a function for each type of launcher which adds variety to game-play. I don't want to see launchers of different sizes which perform the same exact function as smaller launchers. The reason for this is that it simply clutters the market and makes it easier to make a mistake when purchasing a missile or launcher for a specific ship.
(I hope I didn't mess up the quote up there.)
I want to treat missile ammo just like I'd treat ballistic ammo. The ammo determines the behavior of the projectile, not the launcher/turret/platform.Cornflakes_91 wrote:BFett wrote: Cornflakes, what Josh is proposing in that video is a missile launcher which launches a variety of missiles. So one launcher fits all missiles. While I'm not opposed to a handful of different missile launchers, I'd like to see a function for each type of launcher which adds variety to game-play. I don't want to see launchers of different sizes which perform the same exact function as smaller launchers. The reason for this is that it simply clutters the market and makes it easier to make a mistake when purchasing a missile or launcher for a specific ship.
(I hope I didn't mess up the quote up there.)
eh, so you disagree with differently sized cannons as well?
so any battleship cannon should be mountable on a fighter nilly-willy?
if not, why treat missle launchers and ammo differently from other equipment?
and who said something different?BFett wrote: I want to treat missile ammo just like I'd treat ballistic ammo. The ammo determines the behavior of the projectile, not the launcher/turret/platform.
An auto-cannon shoots a slug of a particular type. The type determines the characteristics of the slug.
size should not be a factor, i'd rather have size as the limiting factorBFett wrote:I don't believe size should be a limiting factor.... I would rather it be volume
Cheeky!Cornflakes_91 wrote:size should not be a factor, i'd rather have size as the limiting factorBFett wrote:I don't believe size should be a limiting factor.... I would rather it be volume
I feel it's time for me to define what I think a weapon in LT may look like.BFett wrote: I want to treat missile ammo just like I'd treat ballistic ammo. The ammo determines the behavior of the projectile, not the launcher/turret/platform.
An auto-cannon shoots a slug of a particular type. The type determines the characteristics of the slug. There can be many different types of auto-cannons and each has different damage, fire rate, reload times ect. I don't believe size should be a limiting factor.... I would rather it be mass or volume of the particular weapon.
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