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Re: Missiles in the games

#122
Cornflakes_91 wrote:a short barrel gun will always have a low muzzle velocity and low accuracy, but you can modify those by swapping out the ammunition (use bigger propellant charges)
While of course we are talking sci-fi guns, and anything is mutable, I do hope you are aware that most guns today cannot swap in a bigger propellant charge in the same gun? The cartridge doesn't fit if it changes size. You can rarely alter the ammunition significantly for a single gun.

But this is make believe! Of course you can alter the ammunition. Just as you can alter the missiles you put in a launcher.

Are you arguing that the game should model launchers and gun barrels independently of missiles and cartridges? Because I think that's misguided. It's excessive complexity. A player is not going to keep track of which caliber bullets their gun fires or which size missiles their launcher fits (other than possibly 'small, medium, large, huge' tied to ship class).

In nearly every sci-fi game you just choose your ammo, and the launcher / gun is assumed to be a universal 'one size fits all'. This is because keeping track of the various types of ammunition is complicated enough.

So I do apologize for misunderstanding the thrust of your argument, but I think your argument is pointless because I do not think it is appropriate to model the barrel of the gun at all. I don't think you can point to a single space shooter that limited which ammunition you could fire based on the gun barrel. They always use generic guns with a selection of ammunition. Some games differ based on the size of the ship (fighters using different ammunition than capital ships) but even that's not always the case.
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Re: Missiles in the games

#123
MyrddinE wrote:While of course we are talking sci-fi guns, and anything is mutable, I do hope you are aware that most guns today cannot swap in a bigger propellant charge in the same gun? The cartridge doesn't fit if it changes size. You can rarely alter the ammunition significantly for a single gun.
And thats why theres totally no HE, HEAT, APFSDS, things like the M1028 or the MPAT round variations, the M982, variable propellant charges for modern cannons, ACP, FMJ, fragmenting rounds and so on for pistols and rifles, buckshot, birdshot, flechette, single slug/arrow for shotguns, HE, smoke, and so forth ammunitions for grenade lauchers....

Strange definition for "rarely" :roll:
MyrddinE wrote: Are you arguing that the game should model launchers and gun barrels independently of missiles and cartridges? Because I think that's misguided. It's excessive complexity. A player is not going to keep track of which caliber bullets their gun fires or which size missiles their launcher fits (other than possibly 'small, medium, large, huge' tied to ship class).
i definitely wouldnt make it anything like the jungle of modern ammunition formats, a simple, one dimensional size system.
Something between 1 and 10, and not anything more complex.
MyrddinE wrote: In nearly every sci-fi game you just choose your ammo, and the launcher / gun is assumed to be a universal 'one size fits all'. This is because keeping track of the various types of ammunition is complicated enough.
and i tend to find the ammunition systems in those games bland and one-dimensional :P
MyrddinE wrote:I don't think you can point to a single space shooter that limited which ammunition you could fire based on the gun barrel.
EVE, Freespace, Elite Dangerous, the X series.
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Re: Missiles in the games

#124
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
MyrddinE wrote:I don't think you can point to a single space shooter that limited which ammunition you could fire based on the gun barrel.
EVE, Freespace, Elite Dangerous, the X series.
Freespace 2 doesn't have ammunition; the guns and ammo exist as a single unit, so we're back to all of the items I listed (Rate of fire, Salvo length, cost, volume, etc) being relevant.

Eve does not have different projectile barrels... it just has four size categories tied to the ship class, and a fighter class projectile cannon can fire any fighter class ammo. This is exactly what I described in my post. Again, since the only thing that changes is the ammo, all the items I listed are relevant.

Elite Dangerous does have ammunition, but guns cannot fire multiple kinds. A type 1 cannon just fires type 1 ammunition which is auto-refilled for you at a station. Again, since you can only choose the gun and not the ammo, every item I listed is relevant.

X3 is like Elite Dangerous, with some weapons having ammo but you can't choose the ammo.

So in every single game you mentioned, you can either choose the ammo or the gun, but never both. In other words, you only need to look at one list to see the stats of your weapon choices. And in every game above, your choice (of gun or ammo) determines all the characteristics of the weapon. None of them combine the characteristics of the gun with separate characteristics of ammo to create a combined weapon value.

The same is true of missiles... in every game, you don't choose the launcher you just choose the missile, and that determines all the characteristics of the weapon.

Your insistence on separating out the delivery mechanism from the ammunition may make sense in real life, but is an unnecessary complication in a game. Even Eve, by far the most complicated space sim ever created, doesn't have the barrel modify the performance of the ammunition.
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Re: Missiles in the games

#125
MyrddinE wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
MyrddinE wrote:I don't think you can point to a single space shooter that limited which ammunition you could fire based on the gun barrel.
EVE, Freespace, Elite Dangerous, the X series.
Freespace 2 doesn't have ammunition; the guns and ammo exist as a single unit, so we're back to all of the items I listed (Rate of fire, Salvo length, cost, volume, etc) being relevant.

Eve does not have different projectile barrels... it just has four size categories tied to the ship class, and a fighter class projectile cannon can fire any fighter class ammo. This is exactly what I described in my post. Again, since the only thing that changes is the ammo, all the items I listed are relevant.

Elite Dangerous does have ammunition, but guns cannot fire multiple kinds. A type 1 cannon just fires type 1 ammunition which is auto-refilled for you at a station. Again, since you can only choose the gun and not the ammo, every item I listed is relevant.

X3 is like Elite Dangerous, with some weapons having ammo but you can't choose the ammo.

So in every single game you mentioned, you can either choose the ammo or the gun, but never both. In other words, you only need to look at one list to see the stats of your weapon choices. And in every game above, your choice (of gun or ammo) determines all the characteristics of the weapon. None of them combine the characteristics of the gun with separate characteristics of ammo to create a combined weapon value.

The same is true of missiles... in every game, you don't choose the launcher you just choose the missile, and that determines all the characteristics of the weapon.

Your insistence on separating out the delivery mechanism from the ammunition may make sense in real life, but is an unnecessary complication in a game. Even Eve, by far the most complicated space sim ever created, doesn't have the barrel modify the performance of the ammunition.
Actually you are wrong about EVE, both the weapon, and specific ammunition selected make a difference in range, rate-of-fire, damage, falloff, tracking speed, type of damage, and (in the case of missiles) functionality.

Each weapon type (Hybrid, Projectile, Laser, Missile) has it's own forms of ammo at both T1 (regular) Faction (better), and T2 (crazy bonus/penalties) at each of the different sizes (S, M, L, XL) which admittedly are mostly the same.
But the thing is it does have them.

And I would say right now, that players would want MORE variety in their ammunitions, so they can tailor their damage to specific situations better.
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Re: Missiles in the games

#126
MyrddinE wrote:Eve does not have different projectile barrels... it just has four size categories tied to the ship class, and a fighter class projectile cannon can fire any fighter class ammo. This is exactly what I described in my post. Again, since the only thing that changes is the ammo, all the items I listed are relevant.

Your insistence on separating out the delivery mechanism from the ammunition may make sense in real life, but is an unnecessary complication in a game. Even Eve, by far the most complicated space sim ever created, doesn't have the barrel modify the performance of the ammunition.
except it does.

different weapons have different performance characteristics, and the ammunition loaded modifies that characteristics.
the guns have values for range and damage multipliers, ammunition has damage values and range multipliers, both together result in the final range and damage values.
which is all im saying, both factors determine the end result.

and the size categories arent hard tied to ship class, its just that larger ships can mount larger cannons which need larger ammo.
you can still mount smaller cannons in large hardpoints.
there are also small ships which can mount larger cannons than usual for their shipclass.
as some battlecruiser variations being able to mount battleship class turrets.
or frigate sized bombers being able to mount battleship class missle launchers.

MyrddinE wrote:X3 is like Elite Dangerous, with some weapons having ammo but you can't choose the ammo.
and with freespace and x you chose the launcher, albeit its included with the ship.
not all ships can launch all types of missles.
if you want to launch tsunami bombs, you are not going to do that with an apollo fighter.


the point that other games havent done something isnt an argument against doing it ourself.


and in the end. josh seems to disagree with you

edit:
theres also independence war 2, which has separated launchers and missles.
also: gunship apocalypse
im also pretty sure that i played different games which had things like x2,x3,x4 missle hardpoints as equipment available in addition to different missle types.

edit: also, what about non-space-shooters?
STALKER, Crysis, World of Tanks, all have changeable ammunition types for their weapons.
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Re: Missiles in the games

#127
Honestly I'm in agreement with Cornflakes, It's entirely feasible to have an easy to understand system of both projectile types and guns.

Considering the guns and ammo will all end up being procedurally generated for LT though, it may be wise to only use a limited amount of set sizes, to stop mass hysteria over ammunition not fitting weapons. Though I am all for an EVE-like system of ammo even though initially I only ever used Anti-matter because I was a scrub.

Perhaps though, in the information screen of the ammunition, the highest rated (Best attribute) should be highlighted to help players see what the main function of that ammo type is.
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Re: Missiles in the games

#128
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
MyrddinE wrote: Your insistence on separating out the delivery mechanism from the ammunition may make sense in real life, but is an unnecessary complication in a game. Even Eve, by far the most complicated space sim ever created, doesn't have the barrel modify the performance of the ammunition.
Except it does.

Different weapons have different performance characteristics, and the ammunition loaded modifies that characteristics.
the guns have values for range and damage multipliers, ammunition has damage values and range multipliers, both together result in the final range and damage values.
which is all im saying, both factors determine the end result.
MyrddinE wrote:X3 is like Elite Dangerous, with some weapons having ammo but you can't choose the ammo.
and with freespace and x you chose the launcher, albeit its included with the ship.
not all ships can launch all types of missles.
if you want to launch tsunami bombs, you are not going to do that with an apollo fighter.

The point that other games havent done something isnt an argument against doing it ourselves.

And in the end. josh seems to disagree with you

edit:
theres also independence war 2, which has separated launchers and missles.
also: gunship apocalypse
im also pretty sure that i played different games which had things like x2,x3,x4 missle hardpoints as equipment available in addition to different missle types.

edit: also, what about non-space-shooters?
STALKER, Crysis, World of Tanks, all have changeable ammunition types for their weapons.
Cornflakes, what Josh is proposing in that video is a missile launcher which launches a variety of missiles. So one launcher fits all missiles. While I'm not opposed to a handful of different missile launchers, I'd like to see a function for each type of launcher which adds variety to game-play. I don't want to see launchers of different sizes which perform the same exact function as smaller launchers. The reason for this is that it simply clutters the market and makes it easier to make a mistake when purchasing a missile or launcher for a specific ship.

(I hope I didn't mess up the quote up there.)
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Re: Missiles in the games

#129
BFett wrote: Cornflakes, what Josh is proposing in that video is a missile launcher which launches a variety of missiles. So one launcher fits all missiles. While I'm not opposed to a handful of different missile launchers, I'd like to see a function for each type of launcher which adds variety to game-play. I don't want to see launchers of different sizes which perform the same exact function as smaller launchers. The reason for this is that it simply clutters the market and makes it easier to make a mistake when purchasing a missile or launcher for a specific ship.

(I hope I didn't mess up the quote up there.)

eh, so you disagree with differently sized cannons as well?

so any battleship cannon should be mountable on a fighter nilly-willy?

if not, why treat missle launchers and ammo differently from other equipment?
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Re: Missiles in the games

#130
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
BFett wrote: Cornflakes, what Josh is proposing in that video is a missile launcher which launches a variety of missiles. So one launcher fits all missiles. While I'm not opposed to a handful of different missile launchers, I'd like to see a function for each type of launcher which adds variety to game-play. I don't want to see launchers of different sizes which perform the same exact function as smaller launchers. The reason for this is that it simply clutters the market and makes it easier to make a mistake when purchasing a missile or launcher for a specific ship.

(I hope I didn't mess up the quote up there.)

eh, so you disagree with differently sized cannons as well?

so any battleship cannon should be mountable on a fighter nilly-willy?

if not, why treat missle launchers and ammo differently from other equipment?
I want to treat missile ammo just like I'd treat ballistic ammo. The ammo determines the behavior of the projectile, not the launcher/turret/platform.

An auto-cannon shoots a slug of a particular type. The type determines the characteristics of the slug. There can be many different types of auto-cannons and each has different damage, fire rate, reload times ect. I don't believe size should be a limiting factor.... I would rather it be mass or volume of the particular weapon.
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Re: Missiles in the games

#131
BFett wrote: I want to treat missile ammo just like I'd treat ballistic ammo. The ammo determines the behavior of the projectile, not the launcher/turret/platform.

An auto-cannon shoots a slug of a particular type. The type determines the characteristics of the slug.
and who said something different?

also, ignoring the influence a gun has on the fired ammo is just ignorant :P

there are different kinds of weapons for a reason.

for example in austria, the militaries sniper rifles and assault rifles fire the same ammunition (5.56mm NATO, with the snipers getting better batches, but still) and still they have different characteristics in terms of accuracy.
BFett wrote:I don't believe size should be a limiting factor.... I would rather it be volume
size should not be a factor, i'd rather have size as the limiting factor :ghost:
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Re: Missiles in the games

#132
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
BFett wrote:I don't believe size should be a limiting factor.... I would rather it be volume
size should not be a factor, i'd rather have size as the limiting factor :ghost:
Cheeky!

Honestly I see size a necessary. In EVE, the size greatly influences the base stats of the launcher and ammo. A larger base size means higher damage but also lower tracking and other such attributes that make the weapon less viable against smaller targets. In that way it also enhances fleet composition as Fighter (Or specialized larger ships) vs fighter are more viable than putting your siege battleship up against a fighter swarm.

EDIT: There are possible ways around this: Arbitrary bonuses to the weapons based on what ship they're installed on. The drawback for this is that you can spend the same amount of resources for a planet killer as a small fighter weapon.
You could just make Energy Grid a limiting factor, but that restricts the player's research as it locks a weapon to a certain ability before it can't be further upgraded (If the energy is limiting rather than size then the energy usage must initially be high, else there will be too large a gap between ship sizes). The second one is somewhat harder to explain as it's a rather abstract thought in my head but yeah...
<Detritus> I went up to my mom and said "hey... do you feel like giving five dollars to black lives matter?" and she laughed and said no :v <Black--Snow> my life does matter though ~~ added by Hema on Jun 11 2020 (2770)
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Re: Missiles in the games

#133
BFett wrote: I want to treat missile ammo just like I'd treat ballistic ammo. The ammo determines the behavior of the projectile, not the launcher/turret/platform.

An auto-cannon shoots a slug of a particular type. The type determines the characteristics of the slug. There can be many different types of auto-cannons and each has different damage, fire rate, reload times ect. I don't believe size should be a limiting factor.... I would rather it be mass or volume of the particular weapon.
I feel it's time for me to define what I think a weapon in LT may look like.

First off let me define what weapons in a standard Mech Warrior game look like so it is easier to see where I'm coming from.

Most projectile weapons would have the following characteristics:

Weight (The weight of the weapon)
Damage (The damage the weapon delivers; up to and including the maximum range of the weapon)
Heat (The amount of heat generated by firing the gun)
Maximum Range (The range at which damage begins to decline)
Reload Time (Time it takes to fire the next bullet or set of missiles)
Slots (The amount of space a weapon takes up on the mech as a whole)



Now with that out of the way, let me explain my previous post.

When I said “I don't believe size should be a limiting factor.... I would rather it be mass or volume of the particular weapon. ” I meant physical size, such as turret or barrel size. I'm not opposed to having some sort of slot system in LT.

The slot system gives the player a number of slots to place equipment into. Some equipment is larger than others and so it takes up more slots. For example a small and medium laser may both take up one slot while a Large Laser may take up two slots.

Port Side
[--Empty--]
[--Empty--]
[--Empty--]

With the system above or one like it, it is unnecessary for a launcher to exist separate from the weapon. It is easier to simply make additional weapons for each launcher type (LRM10 launches 10 missiles while a LRM5 launches 5 missiles). Ammunition can still be swapped in and out as it would be treated as a modifier for the particular weapon (LRM5 -> LRM5 Inferno)

So here's my suggestion... buy a launcher which comes with a blueprint for producing basic ammo. The ammo can be swapped out with special rounds as needed.
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Re: Missiles in the games

#134
Alright, lemme give you guys the correct answer here.


Ignore all the crap above this post. :ghost:

Seems to me we have two systems in play.
The Launcher, the object that is fitted to the ship.
The Munition, the object that hits the enemy.

The Launcher has a bunch of properties, things like:
Rate of Fire
Reload Speed (if zero, it only reloads manually, while docked, like a pylon)
Clip Size
Ejection Speed (zero is just dropping the object at your ships current velocity)
Calibre (The size of round the launcher fires)

The Munition also has a bunch of properties, things like:
Penetration (Things that just explode on the surface, like plasma, are zero)
Fuel Tank (Zero means the munition is fired at the speed of the launcher)
Engine Power (Helps define Acceleration)
Turning Power (do you even turn bro?)
Tracking Type (Radar, Ladar, Heat, Laser, etc...)
Tracking Power (More power makes it harder to dodge)
Explosive Power (Zero makes it a hard shell, higher values will eventually make it nuclear!)
Explosive angle (360 gives you an undirected explosion, 5 will give you a 10 degree cone that explodes the crap out of things!)
Explosive Trigger (Magnetic, timed, manual, etc.)
Submunition -- Links to another muniton, and a count of those

Examples:

Mine: launcher with zero ejection speed, zero fuel, high explosive power, and magnetic trigger
Missile: Launcher with low ejection speed, some fuel and engine power, low explosive angle and low/zero penetration
Shotgun: a launcher with high ejection speed with a shell munition that has ball submunitions!


Now, what can't we make with this system?
Lasers, Biological guns?
Things that need to generate ammo.. huh, pretty easy to fix isnt it?

Ammo Generator
Attached to a Launcher, it generates ammo directly into the clip,
Based on a cost, which can include materials or reactor power.
Has a few other properties:
Munition Generated
Time per munition
Cost per munition


So now we can make lasers, guns that produce their own ammo, biological weapons that grow their own ammo.
Even a system that "enchants" ammo, by taking steel rounds and returning explosive rods, (or whatever) :V

Three systems that can produce near infinite possibilities, perfect for Procedural Generation.
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Re: Missiles in the games

#135
BFett: Theres a question: how should that slot system work with hardpoints that are distributed over the hull?

You cant just unify two random turret mounts from opposite points of the hull and say thats your new size two turret.

Where does that turret get placed?


With all the mech games its either fully text or 100% hardcoded placement of equipment, you dont have to account for the placement of the hardpoints, as every device has a pretty fixed point and orientation.

But in LT theres an infinite amount of devices, and those wont be fixed in location and orientation.


The only thing that could work would be that hardpoints have a size rating, and you can fill up that size with multiple devices if you desire.
So a class 3 hardpoint could hold a single C3 weapon, or C2+C1 or 3 C1.
Those hardpoints would have independent point pools and fixed locations, so if you have 10 C1 turrets over your hull you cant just swap them out for a single C10 gun.


But the whole ship just being a pool of points after its constructed creates many more questions than it answers and also waters down the differences between ships.
"I built a ship with three C10 turrets and it totally,sucks against the enemies fighter focus, lets rip them all out and replace them with c3 turrets"
No commitment in designs, no reason to think about the hardpoint layout of your ship if everything is just an empty hull.

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