Why not
-Exhaust Velocity
-Mass Ratio
-Acceleration
Together, these define the flight time and max speed (and thus the range), as well as agility, of the missile. You want all of those numbers to be bigger, which makes things easier on the player (for the same reason that you should place the "nominal ranges" of large numbers of dials in the same direction). When a missile runs out of remass (that is, its mass ratio falls to one), it checks for its locked target. As soon as the distance starts increasing (indicating that it's probably the closest it'll get), it detonates and thus removes itself from the pool. Lower-tech missiles might just blow up immediately. In this way, missiles are given a finite lifespan.
Launchers should also have traits regarding fire and reload rate. In this way, quantity of self-contained munitions is finite.
Missile control computers should have a limited processing power and/or comms bandwidth. In this way, quantity of remote-control and sensory munitions is finite.
Remote-control missiles should be worth their greater fitting costs and risks, perhaps by carrying bigger payloads or using smarter algorithms.
Extensive balancing should be done to ensure reasonable behavior. Then sliders.
Post
Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:42 pm
#167
Of course there have to be some limits, for technical reasons as well as for gameplay fun. If there's an objectively plausible reason for them, they aren't arbitrary.
These are a reasonable starting point:
Re: Missiles in the games
You weren't just talking about arbitrary numeric limits on the number of missiles that can be released at any moment in time? That's specifically what I was talking about.Cornflakes_91 wrote:so when i suggest it its evil and arbitary but when you suggest it its fine?Flatfingers wrote: 2. Require missiles (versus big, expensive torpedoes) to be controlled by the ship that fired them. (Torpedoes have onboard guidance.) If the firing ship is destroyed, or its targeting system is degraded, or the targeting signal is jammed or hacked or otherwise interrupted in some way, controlled missiles lose their target lock. After that, see rule #1 above.
Of course there have to be some limits, for technical reasons as well as for gameplay fun. If there's an objectively plausible reason for them, they aren't arbitrary.
These are a reasonable starting point:
FormalMoss wrote:
- Flight time
- Speed
- Explosion radius
- Explosion speed
0111narwhalz wrote:
- Exhaust Velocity
- Mass Ratio
- Acceleration
Reading my mind.0111narwhalz wrote:Then sliders.
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:53 am
#168
Re: Missiles in the games
Okay, I have a quick question. What is the difference between rockets, missiles, and torpedoes?
I'd guess that rockets are dumb fire with no tracking capabilities, while missiles track their targets. Assuming this is true, what is your definition of a torpedo?
( Space game context obviously)
I'd guess that rockets are dumb fire with no tracking capabilities, while missiles track their targets. Assuming this is true, what is your definition of a torpedo?
( Space game context obviously)
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:54 am
#169
Re: Missiles in the games
Torpedoes are generally larger - something you send to blow up a large ship.
Warning: do not ask about physics unless you really want to know about physics.
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Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:30 am
#170
Re: Missiles in the games
And normally really slow and don't have a target follow system. Align your ship, drop em, turn around.Dinosawer wrote:Torpedoes are generally larger - something you send to blow up a large ship.
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Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:40 am
#171
and are easily shot down.
Missiles would either have very basic guidance or depend entirely on the ship that fired them for guidance.
and are easily diverted with the correct counter measures.
Torpedo's would be like cruse missiles, or the largest might be like ICBM's. and would contain advanced guidance and possibly their own counter measures.
but they would be very expensive, and could only be fired one or maybe two at a time. and can be countered by advanced counter measures.
Re: Missiles in the games
Rockets are basic dumb fire projectiles, cheep and plentiful, ant hard to hit stuff with,BFett wrote:Okay, I have a quick question. What is the difference between rockets, missiles, and torpedoes?
I'd guess that rockets are dumb fire with no tracking capabilities, while missiles track their targets. Assuming this is true, what is your definition of a torpedo?
( Space game context obviously)
and are easily shot down.
Missiles would either have very basic guidance or depend entirely on the ship that fired them for guidance.
and are easily diverted with the correct counter measures.
Torpedo's would be like cruse missiles, or the largest might be like ICBM's. and would contain advanced guidance and possibly their own counter measures.
but they would be very expensive, and could only be fired one or maybe two at a time. and can be countered by advanced counter measures.
"A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke
- Arthur C. Clarke
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:01 am
#172
We dont need to track isp and mass ratio calculations in for the player.
For the finished missile some contracted values for
-burn time
-top speed (theres space drag in LT, dont forget)
-maximum powered range with acceleration from 0 factored in.
-some time measure for doing 90°, 180° vector changes as measure for agility
to give actually useful values to the player instead of ways to calculate them.
the player doesnt care for ISP and mass ratios, they want to know what their missiles can and cannot hit.
For missile design theres more values needed of course.
Component masses, fuel amount in tank, fuel usage and thrust of thruster, rotation rate/acceleration and whatever else i forgot right now.
And of course the calculated end stats shown there as well.
Re: Missiles in the games
Why dont just contract them into "burn time"?0111narwhalz wrote: -Exhaust Velocity
-Mass Ratio
We dont need to track isp and mass ratio calculations in for the player.
For the finished missile some contracted values for
-burn time
-top speed (theres space drag in LT, dont forget)
-maximum powered range with acceleration from 0 factored in.
-some time measure for doing 90°, 180° vector changes as measure for agility
to give actually useful values to the player instead of ways to calculate them.
the player doesnt care for ISP and mass ratios, they want to know what their missiles can and cannot hit.
For missile design theres more values needed of course.
Component masses, fuel amount in tank, fuel usage and thrust of thruster, rotation rate/acceleration and whatever else i forgot right now.
And of course the calculated end stats shown there as well.
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:39 am
#173
Re: Missiles in the games
Well, you would expose those quantities to the player only if they ask for them. Otherwise, the player would get computed things like burn time, max speed (Urgh. I'm turning off space drag. ), an agility quantity like angular acceleration, and linear acceleration (from a standstill, because space drag). Perhaps the player (or AIs) could develop omnidirectional missiles with slightly lower accelerations and mass ratios but which make turning obsolete.Cornflakes_91 wrote:Why dont just contract them into "burn time"?0111narwhalz wrote: -Exhaust Velocity
-Mass Ratio
We dont need to track isp and mass ratio calculations in for the player.
For the finished missile some contracted values for
-burn time
-top speed (theres space drag in LT, dont forget)
-maximum powered range with acceleration from 0 factored in.
-some time measure for doing 90°, 180° vector changes as measure for agility
to give actually useful values to the player instead of ways to calculate them.
the player doesnt care for ISP and mass ratios, they want to know what their missiles can and cannot hit.
For missile design theres more values needed of course.
Component masses, fuel amount in tank, fuel usage and thrust of thruster, rotation rate/acceleration and whatever else i forgot right now.
And of course the calculated end stats shown there as well.
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:58 am
#174
Re: Missiles in the games
and even without drag i couldnt care less about the missiles mass ratio or ISP, i want to know its dv
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:10 am
#175
Re: Missiles in the games
Well, sure. That's just Veln(MR). Should be one of the "computed" quantities shown to the player, but easy enough to Lua into the UI if need be. And you don't want to just research "more dv." What does that even mean? You want to research physical characteristics, like better structural engineering (which raises mass ratio, and thus dv) or hotter reactors (which raise exhaust velocity, and thus dv). Sure, you can hide those quantities from the player, but they should be the basis of the missile's stats.Cornflakes_91 wrote:and even without drag i couldnt care less about the missiles mass ratio or ISP, i want to know its dv
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:13 am
#176
Re: Missiles in the games
In the design screen yes.
In the final item stat screen? No, what for?
And even there i dont really care for it, a given thruster has a certain thrust and fuel usage rate, how it gets there is a question for the thruster design stage.
In the final item stat screen? No, what for?
And even there i dont really care for it, a given thruster has a certain thrust and fuel usage rate, how it gets there is a question for the thruster design stage.
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:29 am
#177
On adjustable characteristics for missiles/torpedoes: how detailed does this need to be in default, out-of-the-box, LT v1.0?
I understand wanting lots of detail. But remembering that -- even with his 133t skillz -- Josh has to code every feature in LT v1.0, what missile/torpedo features are on the "must have" side of the line, and what features are on the "nice to have" side?
Re: Missiles in the games
This is also my working definition for space games, with the minor addition that torpedoes are slower and less nimble (turn more slowly) than missiles. This might be just a notional holdover from wet navy physics, but it's one of those things that feels right for a game.N810 wrote:Rockets are basic dumb fire projectiles, cheep and plentiful, ant hard to hit stuff with,
and are easily shot down.
Missiles would either have very basic guidance or depend entirely on the ship that fired them for guidance.
and are easily diverted with the correct counter measures.
Torpedo's would be like cruse missiles, or the largest might be like ICBM's. and would contain advanced guidance and possibly their own counter measures.
but they would be very expensive, and could only be fired one or maybe two at a time. and can be countered by advanced counter measures.
On adjustable characteristics for missiles/torpedoes: how detailed does this need to be in default, out-of-the-box, LT v1.0?
I understand wanting lots of detail. But remembering that -- even with his 133t skillz -- Josh has to code every feature in LT v1.0, what missile/torpedo features are on the "must have" side of the line, and what features are on the "nice to have" side?
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:34 am
#178
Re: Missiles in the games
Simple guidance and time-to-live is enough for basic gameplay. Later on, you might get better algos and greater granularity.
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:04 am
#179
Re: Missiles in the games
I'd like to argue that some form of flare or ECM would also be somewhat of a must-have.
Self guided (evasion negating), long range weaponry needs some counter that works for small ships which cant mount point defence turrets
Self guided (evasion negating), long range weaponry needs some counter that works for small ships which cant mount point defence turrets
Post
Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:29 am
#180
Re: Missiles in the games
Don't forget chaff...
Also you could probably bjust shoot it with another missile or your gun.
Also you could probably bjust shoot it with another missile or your gun.
"A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke
- Arthur C. Clarke