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Re: damage types and interactions

#17
DWMagus wrote:Didn't we hash out all of this with shield frequencies some months back?
its not quite like that.

shield frequencies are limited and every weapon can do relatively large areas of the spectrum.
while my type concept provides infinite combinations and every weapon/shield/armor is limited to one (or very few) types

im also not providing any way of just getting around shields by matching a number

its also not changeable on the fly, but its dependent on the specific items
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Re: damage types and interactions

#18
I like the thought of the differeing weapons and damage types, and fully support color grading for simplistic recognition of enemy weapon type (Though it should be noted that there may be issues with partial or fully colorblind) but I find myself thinking its getting a bit complicated. Not only will that make it more difficult to code, but for the average player, this level of complexity is just frustrating. I think this is solved pretty easily by just taking out one aspect. I think that shields should be universal. No one really has any idea of how the heck a sci-fi style shield would work anyway, so making cases for what it would or wouldn't do is more effort than its worth IMO.
I would say that the damage types would revolve around your weapons, and would be buffed, or debuffed, based on what they hit.
Ie, A laser does the same base damage as a pulse to a shield, but a laser may be reflected off of armor more easily than pulse. But a railgun hits shields weakly, but absolutely slams armor.
Nano-particle shots do litterally no damage to shields, but cause rapid decay of armor health over a long time.
The stacking stats and overlays of having diferent types of shields and armor just seems like too much to me, but I would love to have to think about what I should be shooting with.
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Re: damage types and interactions

#19
msh25563 wrote: I would say that the damage types would revolve around your weapons, and would be buffed, or debuffed, based on what they hit.
Ie, A laser does the same base damage as a pulse to a shield, but a laser may be reflected off of armor more easily than pulse. But a railgun hits shields weakly, but absolutely slams armor.
Nano-particle shots do litterally no damage to shields, but cause rapid decay of armor health over a long time.
The stacking stats and overlays of having diferent types of shields and armor just seems like too much to me, but I would love to have to think about what I should be shooting with.
so you simplify my system to x weapons + shield + armor types

and when someone has a weapon that totally screws shields nobody could do anything against that, because any shield is susceptible to that.

with my system you have dynamism in it.

so the universal shield screwer weapon is suddenly not so universal anymore, and maybe completely ineffectual against another races' shields.

so you can counter the shield screwer weapon by just using the system.

and so over large areas nothing is overwhelmingly good or bad, because theres always something against which your weapon is awesome or sucks
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Re: damage types and interactions

#20
But your shield screwer sucks against armor, so I dont just die, I continue flying around, using my own shield screwer.
If you don't change at that point, your weapons effectiveness drops to something much lower. :o :D
Since we both agreed in a seperate thread that weapon changes should take a short period of time, equipping lots of shield screwers would leave you pretty open to attack when you had to change to armor screwers, and by the time you changed, my screwed shield might have its second wind. In practicality it requires just as much thought.
We both also agreed that shield changes should take a while, so if your wearing your plasma shield, and some dude starts jack-hammering you with rail-gun, your not going to be able to change in combat, your just kinda screwed.
For people, maybe you maybe not, who hot key, and strafe, and use complex systems to do things very quickly, that isnt as big a deal, but to the average player, it would be very annoying, and everyone would end up just using the 'general strength' shield.
if you dont have to change what youre using, you will fare better in my fights, so the average guy can devote more time to the dogfighting, and less to shield swapping and stat-stacking math.
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Re: damage types and interactions

#21
but with your "used in any other game out there" concept you are screwed in general, like always if theres a duo with anti shield + anti hull weapons

with no room to change anything in that regard, you are always behind on them, with no room to change and adapt besides getting more hitpoints in your shield and hull.

with my concept you may start exploring or researching to make their shield screwer less screwy vs your shields.

increasing your effectiveness, maybe without getting any stronger "in general", against them.

this would also alleviate a problem that was noted with the LT research system in general: at some point in time values get either completely over the roof, so that nobody else could catch up or it just stalls at some point and no research changes anything anymore.
with my concept you could always do research to get better against somebody, but with the drawback that someone else gets better against you at the same time.

so you'd leave the endless circle of more and exchange it against an infinte rock-papers-scissor type game, where everyone is on average as strong as everyone else without it just being boring


most of the time you also wouldnt have to mix and match you know that you are in a certain area, and in this area a certain type of weapon is used primarily, so you gear up against that type.

and the gear for that would also concentrate in that area, as there is the need for it
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Re: damage types and interactions

#22
And you are screwed if someone attacks you with a specialty weapon in your system.
Personally, I don't really like either of our ideas that much, but i prefer mine. I think it leaves a lot of room for error with small mistakes.
In response, if someone has both shield and hull weapons, they will take a while to whittle down my shields. this means that they are not really that effective against shields. After they get through them, it will take a while to get through my armor, because they arent theat effective aggainst armor.
half of your weapons are +1 against it, half are -1. thats a wash, you aren't doing any extra damage to me for haveing a variety of weapons, if i dont have some specialization, which in my scenario, i can't. having different weapon types in my scenario would be for fighting enemies who have a strong shield, and weak armor, or vice versa, and you can have more guns for one, and suffer some slowness for the other.
In your scenario, whoever has the right mix of weapons/shields wins, with little room for tactics or skill to affect the outcome.
It would be better for people who want to be able to swap around their tools for every single fight they do, and I'm not saying those people dont exist.
When I play Skyrim, I dont switch from sword and shield to dual swords if my enemy has no armor. I know that theoretically it would be better, but Im just not going to do that every time i fight someone, and I'm not going to change every weapon/shield/armor for every fight in LT either. Some people would, but I think that it is a vast minority, and that the features would end up being a nuisance to anyone that doesn't do it themselves. . . . . Kind of like the MARS.
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Re: damage types and interactions

#23
msh25563 wrote:And you are screwed if someone attacks you with a specialty weapon in your system.
Personally, I don't really like either of our ideas that much, but i prefer mine. I think it leaves a lot of room for error with small mistakes.
In response, if someone has both shield and hull weapons, they will take a while to whittle down my shields. this means that they are not really that effective against shields. After they get through them, it will take a while to get through my armor, because they arent theat effective aggainst armor.
half of your weapons are +1 against it, half are -1. thats a wash, you aren't doing any extra damage to me for haveing a variety of weapons, if i dont have some specialization, which in my scenario, i can't. having different weapon types in my scenario would be for fighting enemies who have a strong shield, and weak armor, or vice versa, and you can have more guns for one, and suffer some slowness for the other.
In your scenario, whoever has the right mix of weapons/shields wins, with little room for tactics or skill to affect the outcome.
It would be better for people who want to be able to swap around their tools for every single fight they do, and I'm not saying those people dont exist.
When I play Skyrim, I dont switch from sword and shield to dual swords if my enemy has no armor. I know that theoretically it would be better, but Im just not going to do that every time i fight someone, and I'm not going to change every weapon/shield/armor for every fight in LT either. Some people would, but I think that it is a vast minority, and that the features would end up being a nuisance to anyone that doesn't do it themselves. . . . . Kind of like the MARS
as you are when someone attacks you with a shield buster.

but the difference between yours and mine is that with your system you are always in trouble when someone comes with an anti shield weapon
and you can do nothing against that
no equipment swap could change that the shield breakers are good against shields

but with my system you could adapt to them.
so their advantage against your shields isnt permanent

so you can analyse and think about how you can adapt to them.

and if you dont want to analyse and think about that you can just default to a mindstate which you want to make the game design.

"their weapons are good against my shields, so i need to watch carefully"

which would be no different than in your system

if you dont care your dont have to care

but if you care you can micromange, min-max and so forth to maximise your effectiveness
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Re: damage types and interactions

#24
In your system you do have to care. If someone can see what shield you have, and follows you to see what weapon you like to use, they know exactly what you are weak against. Even if you never realize that this system exists someone can bear down on you with a combo you cant defend against.
In mine, if you dont want to be part of this system, use a general type weapon, and keep the same level of armor and shield. No matter who you go against, you'll do ok, and no matter who comes after you they can only hurt one or the other well.
As i said, I don't particularly like either of these systems, and unless someone can give some elegant solution to it, i would prefer to have the standard system Josh uses, where the only deciding factors are speed, accuracy, and charge-time or cost.
These factors arent going anywhere, and when you consider them into your system, it all becomes even more complicated. . . .
Imagine someone whos only weakness is plasma weapons, but plasma is the slowest weapon, and they built their craft for speed and maneuverability.
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Re: damage types and interactions

#25
msh25563 wrote: In mine, if you dont want to be part of this system, use a general type weapon, and keep the same level of armor and shield. No matter who you go against, you'll do ok, and no matter who comes after you they can only hurt one or the other well.
in my system use different types of shield and armor (plasma shield and laser armor for example) and mix your weapon loadout.

same effect, more room for specialisation and thinking/research
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Re: damage types and interactions

#26
But again it would be easy to build overpowered ships, that can only be hurt by things that can't touch them, leacing the two of you to circle and easliy dodge until you get so bored that you just run away in frustration.
But even if you ignore that kind of problem, you still have the issue that you cant just mix them and do well, because you can only have two specialty defenses, and there are several weapon types, mean that you still have to change out every fight, or risk being completly wiped out because you didnt use the right shield. You end up doing the same thing, but with more frustration.
And in exchange for all of that, you have to buy more things, and carry more things, just to be prepared to be prepared to do battle.
Or carry different weapons. and a single shield.
Also, can you change armor? would that not just be changing ships? plating perhaps? :problem:
Regardless of all that, you end up with a scenario where ninety nine percent of people are just going to use the general weapons, and general shields, not because they want to, but because if they dont, they have to start swapping out for different ones every battle.
That is someones idea of fun, but it's not mine, and probablility says that that means that it's not many other's idea of fun either.
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Re: damage types and interactions

#27
msh25563 wrote: shields can have multiple affinities, to prevent oscillation between a low number of damage types.

also: in my system there isnt any "general" type.

There could be types which have a high amount of 0% affinity connections, but the type would also have its weaknesses.

And still you dont have to swap every battle if you dont want to, only if you minmax against a certain enemy.

In a given area there wouldnt be a high amount of used types, maybe 2 or 3, which dont change very .

So as long as you dont travel far, or pose a strategic threat to a big faction (that they go and develop a counter to your equipment) you can stick with your loadout.

So in an area where plasma weapons are the highest developed (and thus most damaging) weapons, you take a shield that protects you against plasma weapons and you should be fine


I also dont see where you get all that "cant touch" from.
It would be harder to fight an enemy that is adapted to you, not flat out impossible.




Edit:
Think about how it was in freelancer.
every area had a few limited types of weapons (which in theory alse had different effects on different shields).

Plasma and Laser in Liberty
Particle and Tachyon in Bretonia
Laser and Photon in Kusari
Plasma and Tachyon in Rheinland
Particle and Tachyon in the Corsar/Outlaw systems

So depending on where you are you know roughly what weapons get used there and can gear up accordingly.
Or just use gear thats in general good and dont care for the local stuff, but you wouldnt get the advantages you'd have if you would care
Last edited by Cornflakes_91 on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: damage types and interactions

#28
I like the colour idea. No matter how complex the weapon system is, I still need to be able to identify and analyse it so I can react. I think somewhere up there people talked about how seeing the 'colours' could simply be a translation of frequencies of light into the HUD via the sensors which are actually seeing the attacks. In that regard it could be cool to have all the laser/electromagnetic weapons based on this system, but it might also be cool to have the other weapons systems work according to their own systems, e.g. physical weapons like railguns/missiles are more effective against different hulls according to the base material, and chemical/reaction based ones like ion beams could be more or less damaging depending on the type of ion fired and the coating on the ship hull.
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Re: damage types and interactions

#29
You could weight the types of course.

For example that the types that kinetic weapons have are tendentially more effective against the types armor has and such things

InfelixTurnus wrote:chemical/reaction based ones like ion beams could be more or less damaging depending on the type of ion fired and the coating on the ship hull.
*cringe*
If your beam weapon is dependent on secondary, chemical reactions to do damage you are not accelerating the beam enough.

Theres a reason why chemical weapons are only effective against living enemies (in RL)

A human is screaming in pain and lies on the ground if you acid-burn a patch on his skin.
Or dies due to suffocation/haemmoraghing if you damage his lungs.

Tanks dont feel pain nor die if you etch a few holes into its air intake or flake off a milimeter of its armor.
Chemical weapons are completely useless against mechanised targets.
Especially in space where any reagent would evaporate away into the vacuum.
If enough reagent would even reach the armor to do something.

Its very likely that it would be more effective to just use the chemicals to make explosives
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Re: damage types and interactions

#30
But what do you think of Nano based weapons, perhaps missiles, that do a very small base, but damage over time as they 'eat' away at whatever they hit?
But I would say that it could be impossible to fight an enemy that is adapted to you, if its the right adaption.
If an enemy is only weak to the slowest moving thing, and they can move very nimbly, it would be very difficult to hit them. Which is what you said, just difficult, not impossible. My point is that if they are even reasonably good a dodging, they will almost certainly be able to avoid enough hits to allow their shields to amp back up while you chase, trying to get another hit in.
And all the while, the just slowly work you down with a constant, hyper fast attack, like laser, that is easy to shoot with while moving.
Since you are constantly being attacked, your shields never even slightly re-coup, and you will eventually be worn down to death, even if you are a relatively large ship, and they are a simple fighter.
Scale an empire worth of these ships, a statistical inevitablility, and you have a horde of untouchable bees attacking you every time you go near their territory.
Unless you copied their build, you would be left with no recourse.
And, I would say that there would have to be a 'general' strength shield with no specialty, because of the simple fact that when you start you will have no idea what you will be fighting, and you cant afford to buy a series of shields right off the bat for a hundred credit mission to kill some guy, but if you don't, you might end up being woefully disadvantadged.

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