One of the things that really has me excited about this game is the faction system. We don't know a lot of specifics about it yet, but we have a pretty good idea of how it is going to work from the video updates. I think it would be interesting for there to be a stock market where you could buy stocks in these factions. It appears that there is already a very robust economic system in place and the performance of different factions affects the economy and the factions are affected by the economy as well. If you were able to buy stocks in certain factions, it would give you motivation to help that faction out in order to help their price increase. You could also attempt to hurt their competitors to help your portfolio as well. Also, this could make it possible for you to acquire corporations by buying up enough stocks in them. The player could definitely make use of this system to accumulate wealth for themselves, or they could use it to get capital in order to create their own company. I think banking would be another interesting feature that would be very useful in a game like this. Not necessarily banking regulated by some system put in place from the start. But instead banks started by the AI or the player. It would be cool if the AI could recognize money lending as a way to make money. I think this would also allow players to get off to a quicker start and create a larger operation at the beginning of the game instead of having to take a large amount of time grinding to make enough money to get going. For some people, this may be a bit complicated and unneeded, and I understand their position. But, I love economics and I'd love to see this be a part of the already awesome economic system that Josh has created.

I like the idea of a corporation being able to recognise the abstract money-maker which is interest. It would be cool to see factions which operate solely on a cash trading basis without ever touching raw materials. However, how would they deal with factions that are unable to pay? How will they assign credit ratings and determine risk? How will they collect money from factions that are too big to scare off, if those factions simply decide not to provide?

I'm not saying it wouldn't be complicated, I'm just saying it would be a cool feature. As for dealing with those who can't pay, I believe guns for hire will be a very big part of the game And, if the company is involved in piracy, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to lend to them anyway because they have the firepower to back it up if they don't pay. I think assessing risk in lending could be done by looking at the market the company is in (ex. mining in a particular system) and examining the demand for that product and the amount of competition in that particular area. Also, looking at the assets of the company in question and how old it is can provide a great deal of information in assessing risk. Obviously a company that is just starting up is riskier than an established company looking for a line of credit to buy a few more ships.

Open debt collection contracts. Factions could pay independent ship owners (like, say, you) to bring them property from other factions that aren't paying their bills.
This of course has some obvious holes in it but you get the idea.

Treating faction membership as a shareholder-alike system has already been floated, I believe. I think it's a really good system, personally.

• Invest in the factions you think will make money, then work for them to make you money.
• Do work for a faction and get rewarded in shares, which incentivises you to keep working for that faction.
• Be a member of multiple factions without conflict, simply by buying stock.
• Take control of a faction by owning a large percentage of the shares.

The positives also look good to me. I am curious about a couple of things, though:

1. What cost would there be to converting a faction from one that's privately-held (as when you start it) to being publicly-held? Would the owner have to cede control to a board of directors, or directly to shareholders? How would that management structure work as gameplay?

2. Should there be game mechanics intended to minimize insider trading? If so, how might those mechanics work?

Are we suggesting the ability to buy a competitor out?

I would say that the largest individual shareholder would have control over the company. As a player, this adds a new dynamic of political infighting to the faction because most players will want to maintain control over the faction. This could potentially lead to AI's and players hiring hit-men to take out competing shareholders.

I don't see how insider trading will be much of an issue, and I always see sci fi space as relatively unregulated. Insider trading relies on there being non-public information that the AI or player would know that no one else knows. I would say that this provides motivation for players to investigate companies and adds some risk. But, I really don't see insider trading as being a large factor.

I do think buyouts would be great. I always love horizontal and vertical expansion in games (not in real life) because it can make one person extremely powerful. If I own some kind of a refinery, I want to be able to buy the companies that sell me all the raw materials and ship my goods. I also want to buy out the competition so I can set the price of my goods much higher. I think the galaxy is more interesting when you get extremely powerful characters because not only do you want to be like them, but you also kind of want to take them out and watch their empire fall .

My main question with a stock system is what happens when a character dies? I would say there could be two solutions. 1. The stock goes to the next highest ranking stockholder. Or 2, which is more interesting, the stock goes to the player who killed them. This could be interesting because like the blueprints, represent how to make something, players could carry some kind of object that has their financial info. So when you kill someone, you can get their money and stocks from some kind of card that they carry.

Insider trading really depends on how good the AI is at forecasting the expected outcomes of events and acting based on them.

It's an interesting topic of discussion, but I would suggest it is also a *huge* topic of discussion

As far as "going public", this is also complex and worth mulling over.

For example, suppose I have a mining concern. I want to sell shares in this to raise capital. Do the shares I sell also encompass my hauling ships, or can I merely sell shares in the mining part of my corporation?

Suppose I want to merge with another group. How do we go about that? How do the assets get merged?

It seems that the simplest way is for everything to be hierarchical, with one player always being "the top" and the others being subsidiary "companies" for want of a better word, and so on and so forth all the way down. But what complexities does that produce, and how does one work "up" the chain in this case?

Pretty much against this. The question here really is: Does this add ANYTHING to the gameplay, or is it just another request for a "free money: press here" button?

I remember with dread the horrendously shitty implementation of stock trading in the X-Series. It was basically a money fountain, up to the point where it circumvented a huge part of the actual gameplay. Why bother with setting up factories when an hour of gambling in the stock market nets you a couple of hundred millions? It was absolutely risk-free, and as far as the gameplay value went, they might as well just have implemented an "add money to account"-button.

By the time you can simply buy out major factions, you have pretty much broken the intended scope of gameplay. You might as well quit at that point, unless you obtain some OCD-related enjoyment of watching huge numbers increase.

I'm willing to give it a pass if it resembles the real stock market function in two way: The first being that it's actually capable of ravaging your finances to the point where you cry uncle, and the second that it's actively out to screw you harder than Germany did Brazil. The moment you open up your corp to ownership by someone else, you're basically asking for trouble. If you can screw the companies you own major shares in, then it's only fair that you can get screwed that way, too.

And for the protocol: the moment I find an investment banker in the game is the moment he/she/it dies in the most spectacular manner imaginable.

Hardenberg wrote:Pretty much against this. *etc*

+A lot!!

Hardenberg wrote:And for the protocol: the moment I find an investment banker in the game is the moment he/she/it dies in the most spectacular manner imaginable.

Specially this!!

it does not lead to shooting at other people, hardenberg doesnt like it

the problem with the stock market in X was that it has absolutely no connection to the real market that was present in the game.
just random numbers that changed randomly.
it was broken by design

Hardenberg wrote: By the time you can simply buy out major factions, you have pretty much broken the intended scope of gameplay. You might as well quit at that point, unless you obtain some OCD-related enjoyment of watching huge numbers increase.

well, the "intended scope of gameplay" is at least from the kickstarter promises pretty much unbound.

from single fighter dogfighting to 4X like inter-factional gameplay. (albeit with focus on the lower end)

so when you are able to buy a company that belongs to another races dominion its very well inside the promised scope of the game

you are pretty much saying "i dont want it in the game, so the game is broken when its in" in an elaborated way.


also: would it even touch the scale of game you want to play in?
from what i know you want to have your single fighter and pirate the shit out of the universe.

what the universe does that you can pirate it is at best secondary

Hardenberg wrote: I'm willing to give it a pass if it resembles the real stock market function in two way: The first being that it's actually capable of ravaging your finances to the point where you cry uncle, and the second that it's actively out to screw you harder than Germany did Brazil. The moment you open up your corp to ownership by someone else, you're basically asking for trouble. If you can screw the companies you own major shares in, then it's only fair that you can get screwed that way, too.

if shares get implemented (at all..) in a way that resembles the rest of the LT economy.

just a commodity like any else, with the associated price fluctuations and what not.

also the marked should not be out to screw you by default, it should come from what the NPC wants to archieve who screws you.
if he wants you to make much money that his shares get more valuable i doubt that he would screw you

The question here really is: Does this add ANYTHING to the gameplay, or is it just another request for a "free money: press here" button?

It was the mechanism proposed by Josh for balancing faction mechanics. So, uh, yes, it does, and no, it isn't. Also, wtf? "free money press here"?

It's not the only faction mechanic possible. But it has, in my view, quite a bit going for it. And some problems that might cause problems, true, but "it's just free money" is not one of them.

Once more for the cheap seats: there is a necessity for an economics simulator in this game, even if you are a pew pew pirate player, because there is no pre-programmed content and you need a functional universe to do your pew pew in. Otherwise you're just shooting rocks.

The constant "this is not pew pew, therefore it is horrible and I will shoot it LAWL" is, I mean, what do you even get out of it?

One caveat though: unless something has changed, there is no credit or debt in the simulation, nor any way to charge interest. There can be, therefore, no "banking" of a recognisable type. You cannot leverage up a company or engage in a hostile, leveraged buyout. Any money you spend on shares must come from work, be it honestly earned or dishonestly stolen.

I have an idea about the system of control. From my understanding any sort of corporation that has open market stock has a CEO and a board of directors (in the most basic form), boards are usually 5-10 of the largest share holders, all have between 10-30% of the company, the CEO is ussually a capable person chosen by the board from amongst them selves or other capable company managers preferably from within the company but not unheard of from outside sources. The board ussually advises the CEO to their own interest how to run the company. The more stock a person has the more say he/she has in how the company is run. Therefore if a holder manages to obtain majority control by this I mean of total stock which is 51% they are basically a comopany equivalent of a dictator and at 60% control they can basically tell the board to go home. Cause once you have the 51% you pretty much own the company and dont have to listen to anyone else and can either place a new CEO on top to manage it for you or can control it yourself, as where a buyout would require access to roughly 65-70% of a corporation, which means people would want to sell to you or you would have to constantly buy all that hits the market. Thats my input.... (As a 2 time state economics competitors and district 1st place champion back in highschool.)