Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Field

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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby outlander4 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:39 pm

DWMagus wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:the problem is that it also should work if the ship has no shields, or if they are down


Actually, this spawns an interesting thought. What would happen if it didn't work while the shields were down?

This would make both logistical and tactical plans for attack / defense. This intrigues me.


That's approximately the point I was trying to make: 'also making for a nice game-play feature of getting easier-to-penetrate shields and faster moving speed when shields are weakened'. Makes for 'completely non-working wake effect when shields are down'. I'm so good at explaining things *Wall*
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby DWMagus » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:11 pm

outlander4 wrote:
DWMagus wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:the problem is that it also should work if the ship has no shields, or if they are down


Actually, this spawns an interesting thought. What would happen if it didn't work while the shields were down?

This would make both logistical and tactical plans for attack / defense. This intrigues me.


That's approximately the point I was trying to make: 'also making for a nice game-play feature of getting easier-to-penetrate shields and faster moving speed when shields are weakened'. Makes for 'completely non-working wake effect when shields are down'. I'm so good at explaining things *Wall*


All of this brings up another point too;

Even though shields can regenerate and there is a lag time before they come back up, how will weapons/defenses be scaled so that this is viable? How often will shields come back up during battle, or is having your bubble popped become synonymous with getting blown up?
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:16 pm

DWMagus wrote:Even though shields can regenerate and there is a lag time before they come back up, how will weapons/defenses be scaled so that this is viable? How often will shields come back up during battle, or is having your bubble popped become synonymous with getting blown up?


i hope not, as this would make every discussion regarding hitpoints, armor and repairing moot.

i'd like to see some variety, like in EVE.
some ships rely on shields, some rely on armor.
maybe also some hybrid constructs, as shield and armor are dependent on different stats in LT (as i imagine it)
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby ThymineC » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:18 pm

Since there hasn't been one, can we start a new thread called "Shield Mechanics" or something and post some ideas down in them so I have something to build on?
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby DWMagus » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:32 pm

ThymineC wrote:Since there hasn't been one, can we start a new thread called "Shield Mechanics" or something and post some ideas down in them so I have something to build on?


You mean something like this? 8-)
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby ThymineC » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:34 pm

DWMagus wrote:
ThymineC wrote:Since there hasn't been one, can we start a new thread called "Shield Mechanics" or something and post some ideas down in them so I have something to build on?


You mean something like this? 8-)

Thanks.
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby Behemoth » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:55 am

Let's get back on-topic shall we?

I see two possible implementations of this:

A) We say it's an automatic system syncronising small ships with big objects like capitals an asteroids. Slowing down could be justified with more processing.
Pros: -Simple
-Missiles and stuff not affected by it.
-No problems with overlapping
Cons: -Logical consequence of this is that you can turn it off.
-Not very interesting.
-No real "Wake field"

B) We say that it's a carrier wave produced by the H-Drive. Justification could include the nearby particles having an affinity to move in the same direction as the particles affected by the H-field. The effect would weaken as the distance to the field increased. Slowing down could be justified by additional processing caused by the field

Pros: -Interesting gameplay possibilities. i.e. sensors picking up the wake field.
Cons: -Wake only produced by H-drives.
-Logically should cause "Wake distortion", because some parts of an object would be "moving" faster than other parts, which would distort objects badly

I prefer B). P.S Suprisingly lenghty third post.
Last edited by Behemoth on Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby ThymineC » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:29 am

Behemoth wrote:Let's get back on-topic shall we?

I see two possible implementations of this:

B) We say that it's a carrier wave produced by the H-Drive. Justification could include the nearby particles having an affinity to move in the same direction as the particles affected by the H-field. The effect would weaken as the distance to the field increased. Slowing down could be justified by additional processing caused by the field.

Good point, it reminded me of an amendment I wanted to make:

In the H-drive thread, I explained the wakefield effect as occurring due to the fact that the smaller ship's navigation computers would need to compensate for the additional computational complexity of factoring in the space-time distortion that the mass of the larger vessel was generating. This is a poor justification, as even for very large ships this distortion would be negligible. A much more plausible explanation is given by Behemoth - that if the smaller ship flies through the wakefield of the larger ship, the two H-fields will overlap and this will necessitate additional calculations leading to slower jump rates.

One amendment to the actual wakefield mechanic as well: the wakefield effect is reciprocal. If a fighter flies through the wakefield of a capital ship, both ships will slow down, but this will be a lot more noticeable for the fighter than for the capital ship. This is because the fighter and its H-field will both be relatively tiny compared to the capital ship and would necessitate only a small percentage increase in the already staggeringly-huge numbers of calculations the capital ship's navigation computer would have to perform each jump.
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:32 am

ThymineC wrote:
Behemoth wrote:Let's get back on-topic shall we?

I see two possible implementations of this:

B) We say that it's a carrier wave produced by the H-Drive. Justification could include the nearby particles having an affinity to move in the same direction as the particles affected by the H-field. The effect would weaken as the distance to the field increased. Slowing down could be justified by additional processing caused by the field.

Good point, it reminded me of an amendment I wanted to make:

In the H-drive thread, I explained the wakefield effect as occurring due to the fact that the smaller ship's navigation computers would need to compensate for the additional computational complexity of factoring in the space-time distortion that the mass of the larger vessel was generating. This is a poor justification, as even for very large ships this distortion would be negligible. A much more plausible explanation is given by Behemoth - that if the smaller ship flies through the wakefield of the larger ship, the two H-fields will overlap and this will necessitate additional calculations leading to slower jump rates.

One amendment to the actual wakefield mechanic as well: the wakefield effect is reciprocal. If a fighter flies through the wakefield of a capital ship, both ships will slow down, but this will be a lot more noticeable for the fighter than for the capital ship. This is because the fighter and its H-field will both be relatively tiny compared to the capital ship and would necessitate only a small percentage increase in the already staggeringly-huge numbers of calculations the capital ship's navigation computer would have to perform each jump.


this would also make some possibility for "cruise disruptors", special weapons that increase by some way (other than shoot stuff in the others H-Field) increases the computations needed to accelerate further
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby ThymineC » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:46 am

Cornflakes_91 wrote:this would also make some possibility for "cruise disruptors", special weapons that increase by some way (other than shoot stuff in the others H-Field) increases the computations needed to accelerate further

Hell yeah!
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby Behemoth » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:04 am

Cornflakes_91 wrote:
ThymineC wrote:*snip*


this would also make some possibility for "cruise disruptors", special weapons that increase by some way (other than shoot stuff in the others H-Field) increases the computations needed to accelerate further


I immediately thought of a ball, that spun using an oversized H-field to produce a wakefield.

But I think it would be better to put it inside the ship. Maybe a specialised drive, that wouldn't move the ship, but cause a "whirpool" effectively trapping your enemies because of the wakefield?
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:05 am

Behemoth wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
ThymineC wrote:*snip*


this would also make some possibility for "cruise disruptors", special weapons that increase by some way (other than shoot stuff in the others H-Field) increases the computations needed to accelerate further


I immediately thought of a ball, that spun using an oversized H-field to produce a wakefield.

But I think it would be better to put it inside the ship. Maybe a specialised drive, that wouldn't move the ship, but cause a "whirpool" effectively trapping your enemies because of the wakefield?


i personally thought more of an missle type weapon, but this sounds nice too
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby ThymineC » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:13 am

I like both ideas. In my original H-drive thread, I had ideas for cruise disruption weapons - very dense projectiles that would be fired at vessels and cause them to slow down due to distorting the space-time fabric. But this is nonsense because their gravitational effect would be insignificant. I'd prefer some other mechanism that puts pressure on the ship's navigation computer (or else interferes with the operation of the ship's H-field) to make the vessel slow down.

I'd like to see it take a variety of forms:
  • An effect caused by weapons, such as missiles (a temporary cruise disruption effect)
  • An effect actively generated around a vessel (a mobile cruise disruption effect)
  • An effect generated by a structure (a static cruise disruption effect)
  • Possibly other forms beyond these
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby DWMagus » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:31 am

I always liked the idea of the wake field also affecting missiles to some degree.

This adds more strategy for carriers especially. Take down shields temporarily to launch fighters at the risk of lower defenses. Maybe the same effect when the shields pop; requires a little bit of 'charge up' time in order for the shield to come back online. This would also mean that the AI can't just zerg rush you at the beginning of a massive battle.

I do realize the cons to this, but just more food for thought. It's the old offense vs. defense argument.
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Re: Fighters and how to make capital ships feel big, Wake Fi

Postby ThymineC » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:07 pm

DWMagus wrote:I always liked the idea of the wake field also affecting missiles to some degree.

This adds more strategy for carriers especially. Take down shields temporarily to launch fighters at the risk of lower defenses. Maybe the same effect when the shields pop; requires a little bit of 'charge up' time in order for the shield to come back online. This would also mean that the AI can't just zerg rush you at the beginning of a massive battle.

I do realize the cons to this, but just more food for thought. It's the old offense vs. defense argument.

If the interaction between H-fields are responsible for the wakefield effect and missiles are powered using H-field drives, then the wakefield effect should apply to them as well. Personally I would rather have missiles that have an accelerating flight model and rely on conventional thrusters, but this is a pro for having missiles rely on H-drives if it ends up that way.
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