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Re: Subcontracting

#16
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
the way the AI works you'd need special conditions to prevent subcontracting.
In the video from yesterday the AI only knew how to post contacts to attack competitors. It's didn't even know that shooting at something that is trying to kill it is good. So I think where still in the realm of "the way the AI is SUPPOSED to, or MAY work".

Cornflakes_91 wrote:
the way the AI does jobs:

gets new job "bring me 20 datalogs showing the logging ship destroying startek ships"

ai thinks: "i need 20 datalogs"
"how can i obtain them?"
  1. put up a contract asking for datalogs
  2. destroy ships
  3. other ways the AI might can think of
now it does a cost/benefit analysis on the ways and chooses the one with the biggest utility value.

maybe it goes of shooting startek ships.

maybe it opens up another contract.

but there isnt another reason to open up a contract

the only reason is "i want 20 datalogs".
from where this reason comes is completely irrelevant for the AI.

so for preventing subcontracting you'd need to differentiate not only on the reason, but also on the source of the reason.
which is extra complexity
I'm not following your logic here. Subcontracting adds an EXTRA option for the AI. Following your above system, just remove the option to create a new contact. The AI would either take it the contact, or not. (remember the current AI does not know it can do this) The only time the AI would ever make a contract if it was for something that it wanted done for themselves.

Either way, subcontracting will create hundred page mission boards. Where dealing with a ton of AI here, who fly from system to system. If they keep subcontracting existing contracts they would just keep growing.
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Re: Subcontracting

#17
Zanteogo wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
the way the AI works you'd need special conditions to prevent subcontracting.
In the video from yesterday the AI only knew how to post contacts to attack competitors. It's didn't even know that shooting at something that is trying to kill it is good. So I think where still in the realm of "the way the AI is SUPPOSED to, or MAY work".
that is because the AI does not have all cost/benefit assessment routines implemented.

so the step "what shall i do" is not fully implemented.

the "how" is already pretty closely defined as "differentials" on the world state.

the AI has an "as is" state, an "how i want it to be" state and looks for methods for arriving there.

its currently not good at valuing how to archieve its goals.

but it knows what it wants to do






my longer text is an addition which would make the whole contract system more useful and flexible.
as you can outsource any task/contract to anyone, only based on the order number
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Re: Subcontracting

#19
Zanteogo wrote: I'm not following your logic here. Subcontracting adds an EXTRA option for the AI. Following your above system, just remove the option to create a new contact. The AI would either take it the contact, or not. (remember the current AI does not know it can do this) The only time the AI would ever make a contract if it was for something that it wanted done for themselves.
Removing the option would reauire extra code.

As the goal-solving routines would need to differentiate between the cases
  • goal comes from a contract
  • goal comes not from a contract
which it currently does not differentiate.

the goal solving routines simply get a goal to solve, and work out ways to archieve that goal.

Regardless of the source of the goal.

If the routines find that making a contract solves the goal, then they'll make contract.

If not, then not.
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Re: Subcontracting

#20
I guess the system currently is:

Acquire datalogs
Redeem payment
The datalogs become unusable to redeem again for the same contract.

The system needed for subcontracting is:

Acquire datalogs
Redeem payment
Datalogs are used
+The datalogs are copied/transfered to the contract giver
+Conract giver can redeem payment for the transfered datalogs
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Re: Subcontracting

#22
darkpoulp wrote:Does anybody know with certainty what mechanism Josh is using currently?
for doing what? contracts?

from what i know with 100% certanity is:

you take a mission
when you do something that is specified in the mission (for example attacking targets) you get "datasets" that prove that you have done what the quest giver wants you to do.
when you want to claim your payment you transfer the mission logs to the quest giver and he transfers your payment.
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Re: Subcontracting

#24
darkpoulp wrote:Okay, so there is a step between acquering and transfering your data logs. Good.
Thats why i think it does not make any difference if contract or subcontract.

data sets are proof that something happened.

possesing those datalogs is claiming and proving responsibility for those actions.

And datalogs can be stored and transferred.

So if i have the mission to get datalogs that prove something i can as well create the same quest and use those datalogs i get transferred to me to fulfil my mission
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Re: Subcontracting

#25
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
darkpoulp wrote:Okay, so there is a step between acquering and transfering your data logs. Good.
Thats why i think it does not make any difference if contract or subcontract.

data sets are proof that something happened.

possesing those datalogs is claiming and proving responsibility for those actions.

And datalogs can be stored and transferred.

So if i have the mission to get datalogs that prove something i can as well create the same quest and use those datalogs i get transferred to me to fulfil my mission
considering the AI will choose the mission with the highest potential reward, you'll need to lose money to sub-contract out a mission to be done... not sure it would work well.
but you could tell your own ships to do the task for you. make a project out of it.
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Re: Subcontracting

#26
Jacobi1981 wrote: considering the AI will choose the mission with the highest potential reward, you'll need to lose money to sub-contract out a mission to be done... not sure it would work well.
but you could tell your own ships to do the task for you. make a project out of it.
If the AI will take the mission or not is pretty irrelevant to the subcontract system per se.

It would also lead to greater cooperation between .
As with my factory example, the material trader could either sell his wares on the market with uncertain profit.
Or take the subcontract and make sure profit, albeit a bit less than he might have gotten on the market.
Last edited by Cornflakes_91 on Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Subcontracting

#27
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Jacobi1981 wrote: considering the AI will choose the mission with the highest potential reward, you'll need to lose money to sub-contract out a mission to be done... not sure it would work well.
but you could tell your own ships to do the task for you. make a project out of it.
If the AI will take the mission or not is pretty irrelevant to the subcontract system per se.

It would also lead to greater cooperation between .
As with my factory example, the material trader could either sell his wares on the market with uncertain profit.
Or take the subcontract and make sure profit, albeit a bit less than he might have gotten on the market
yes i can see your point.
in some situations i'm sure the AI will create a web of contracts to get the end result that it desires. its a very cool component to the game. i'm lovin it!
"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
- Bjarne Stroustrup

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
- Paul Erdos (1913-1996)
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Re: Subcontracting

#29
Cornflakes_91 wrote:Subcontracts also make an easy way of managing one-of jobs inside your faction.

You dont create a project to repair a single station.
You post a contract on your internal board an let your minions sort it out themselves
hmm, i wonder if/how that will work. wont our fleet basically sit idle or follow main ship if they arent posted to a project?
"C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
- Bjarne Stroustrup

"A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems."
- Paul Erdos (1913-1996)
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Re: Subcontracting

#30
We do know if subcontracting existis as a proper feature? Or must be done "manually", creating missions with the same objectives and then waiting for NPCs to pick up your jobs? Maybe setting a little discount on the rewards and winning some coin in the process, or simply as an intermediate, becaouse your faction has more power than the original contractor and attracts more NPCs. Or maybe the other way around, because your faction is a small fry and the main contractor doesn't want all that attention to himself. Is that feasible?
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