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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#32
One thought on the idea that people change;

I am TERRIBLE with recognizing faces. So bad you would think I have short-term memory loss.

If the AI changes over time, I probably wouldn't recognize them. :problem:
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#35
Cha0zz wrote:that doesn't make him our god, only the one of the npc's, also what would make that us in relation to the npc's? demi-gods? devils? angels?
I'm thinking benevolent ruler or "loveable" dictator depending on the playthrough, I know which one I'm going for. ;)
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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#36
Flatfingers wrote:These images remind me of the cats drawn by Louis Wain as he is thought to have progressed into increasingly more pronounced stages of schizophrenia (possibly as a result of toxoplasmosis from his own cats).
Image I'm not suggesting anyone here is schizophrenic -- it's just something that occurred to me.

The pareidolic notion is pretty clever. The sheer number of NPCs and factions might mean that more abstract iconography is required, but maybe there's enough variation possible in the abstraction of faces...?
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Whoa, the later cats look just like a dimethyltryptamine or ayahuasca experience... which leaves me to wonder; Am I temporarily schizophrenic while under the effects of dmt? Or are schizophrenics constantly experiencing these effects?
Any way. I absolutely love the pareidolic icons, They seem to fit the theme of LT perfectly. I just imagine opening comms with a new npc and seeing his unique "face" come up on the hud and coming to know that face well. I wonder, could they be made to move somewhat, to show basic emotional expressions?
The victorious strategist only seeks battle
After the victory has been won
Whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights
And afterwards looks for victory

-Sun Tzu
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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#38
HoratioScumdog wrote:Whoa, the later cats look just like a dimethyltryptamine or ayahuasca experience... which leaves me to wonder; Am I temporarily schizophrenic while under the effects of dmt? Or are schizophrenics constantly experiencing these effects?
No. Also, the idea that his art portrays a descent into schizophrenia and degenerative artistic ability is flatly false.
woops, my bad, everything & anything actually means specific and conformed
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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#39
Katawa wrote:
HoratioScumdog wrote:Whoa, the later cats look just like a dimethyltryptamine or ayahuasca experience... which leaves me to wonder; Am I temporarily schizophrenic while under the effects of dmt? Or are schizophrenics constantly experiencing these effects?
No. Also, the idea that his art portrays a descent into schizophrenia and degenerative artistic ability is flatly false.
The video was very interesting, Katawa. Thanks! :)
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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#40
Katawa wrote:Also, the idea that his art portrays a descent into schizophrenia and degenerative artistic ability is flatly false.
I think I would want to weigh more than one expert's opinion against the others I first saw referenced in textbooks in the late 1970s (before the "toxoplasmosis -> schizophrenia" papers were published, I think) before I jumped to declare anyone's view "flatly false."

In this day, if you really want to, you can find an expert who'll declare any theory on any subject (and some facts) to be false.

That said, I also found the comments in this video interesting and worth taking seriously. In particular I wish the speaker had stated more directly whether or not the paintings had been arranged out of the chronological order in which they were actually painted. If the usual presented order is very different from the actual chronological order, that might be reasonable evidence to conclude that the "descent into schizophrenia" belief is not well supported.
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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#41
Flatfingers wrote:If the usual presented order is very different from the actual chronological order, that might be reasonable evidence to conclude that the "descent into schizophrenia" belief is not well supported.
What matters is that he could intentionally produce quality works later in life. Assuming the arranged works are presented accurately it's still not useful if they're only judged by themselves because an artist can draw trippy ass shit any time in their career: that's a required part of growing as an artist, experimentation.

If it's being presented as an example of his 'descent' then what matters is if that's all he can produce at those stages.
woops, my bad, everything & anything actually means specific and conformed
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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#42
I didn't mention that objection because I don't think it's as strong: if someone gets better from some neurological problem, they'll naturally express themselves (including through art) less incomprehensibly.

Wain recovering somewhat later in life wouldn't imply that his earlier hospitalized period wasn't part of the proposed arc into schizophrenia.

If the Maclay ordering is very different from the chronological ordering (if that were known), that would be a much stronger argument against the "schizophrenic descent" theory.
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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#43
So I have been thinking extensively on these pareidolic icons and how actual implementation of them could work. What I have shown, though visually simple, is not procedural. In looking for something that is, I believe I have found a method which can not only give procedural heads, but full procedural avatars, and not only full avatars but an infinite variety of visibly different species! :D Perhaps these species will be able to move and interact in interior spaces someday, but lets take it one step at a time.

Inspired by an odd mix of bioluminescent jellyfish, chakra points, the Data editor as presented in updates 10 and 11 (some of the math from which might be useful) and the Ship editor from back in the beginning, my idea is for creating strings of points like beads, each of which anchors an invisible volumetric 3D shape upon which, the lines are projected with branches in enforced symmetry. Image Each line is also a small string of beads, the size, shape, color, brightness, transparency, motion, length, etc. can be mathematically determined (or the values of which can represent derived information about the AI in question). I don’t know exactly how their appearance should be determined, but I am sure the graphics guru can come up with something interesting.
Image These shapes can and should vary in whatever dimensions and transformations are applicable, provided they have a front line from which to enforce symmetry and maximum limits on the distortions. While shapes can overlap and intersect with each other without problems, vertically, they should probably not extend more than halfway into another shape. Taking cues from nature, their horizontal dimensions should form in ratios to the vertical, such as the golden or similar ratios that when applied throughout, lend to a more natural appearance and avoid some volumes having a huge size difference compared to others.
Image Whether these shapes should be simple in their geometry or complex, I am not sure. I imagine a complex geometry would allow for more interesting and complex avatars, but the math of projecting onto them (especially symmetrically) may be significantly more complex and suffer from diminishing returns. If however the shapes are simple, I think that the lines themselves should be given a bit more variety and complexity.

The most important aspect of these icons/avatars is the ability for the player to recognize a face, and that is primarily through locating the eyes and mouth. This should work by creating branches off of the spinal string, to additional anchor points with their own smaller volumes and line projections. Image
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Not only does this ensure that the essential visible features will always appear, but it also opens up the possibility for creating expressions through motion and color for the eyes and mouth without having to affect the other volumes that make up the head. NOTE: Information rich expressions shown through the motion and color change of lines in every volume would be the ideal, but I cannot readily think of a solution which would give that effect reliably while avoiding visual confusion.

It is also a good idea to allow any anchor point to utilize the various 3D volumes possible, as it will allow for a far greater visual diversity in avatar appearances. With some limitations applied to the randomness, visibly different species could be created by a particular genome, with each species having the same 3D volumetric shapes in the same locations along the spine with the same ratio between their sizes, yet the size of each shape, the particular line projections, the color and image patterns of said projections could vary by individual.
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Genders/subtypes of each species could also be enforced by having several more consistent configurations tied to particular naming conventions. As a side note, accessories(jewellry/badges/faction symbols)) could also be applied by including small asymmetric branches off a particular spinal or other node.

An aspect of this spinal projection method I find interesting is that there is no reason to stop at the neck. You could take this method and apply it to a whole body. Branches could be applied to the spine in the same way eyes are to create limbs (in any number/size/shape you like). Here I am reminded of the creature creator in Spore. While I think that there are some similarities, spore squandered its possibilities to create cutesy creatures that EA preferred. I think that the line projection style, avoiding the opaque texturing can accomplish more by leaving more to the viewer’s imagination, only hinting at a body’s shape rather than explicitly rendering it.
Spoiler:      SHOW
More Human shapes can still result is fairly different appearances, quite alien to even each other ImageImageImage Image Image Appearances more alien still are possible by avoiding human proportions altogether Image ImageImage ImageImage
With some ambition, these limbs, along with every volume could have some animation to them, allowing them to expand and contract, to breathe, to move and be expressive. Maybe someday :roll:

At any rate, I think what I have presented can give a good conceptual foundation for the implementation of some fairly unique and visually interesting avatars. Can more be said about them? yes; Can the idea be vastly improved? yes. My service rendered, I leave the concept in more capable hands.

Edit: I realize that on the facial volumes, I didn't actually create a separate volume for the mouth. It was in fact an idea I had after I drew them, and didn't feel like re-drawing both heads. :shh: :shifty:
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Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#44
Hyperion wrote:So I have been thinking extensively on these pareidolic icons and how actual implementation of them could work...
:clap: :clap: :clap:
I guess this is something Josh could implement in his sleep (or during his day off :twisted: ), and it would add a lot to the atmosphere, to "recognize" NPC.
:thumbup:
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Re: Pareidolic Icons

#45
I love it! Now it should actually be easy to design. Nice thinking! I like them more when they're not so humanoid, though, I think... also, it seems it would be a bit difficult to accurately create them based on personality, but eh. I really like it.

Also, this:
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reminds me of this guy for some reason:
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