Hokay, so let's see if my brain has got this thing straight.
I'm thinking as I type, kinda trying to think my way through the gameplay. Here goes:
I pop into existence with a small ship and a thousand credits. I fly around mining and upgrading my equipment, maybe doing a few contracts, and I realize that my biggest problem is that the stock thrusters I'm using are too slow! I'm spending too much time flying around between jobs. I need to make my ship faster!
I go to the station, and I buy the blueprint for the thruster I'm using. It's a mid-size corvette thruster, a mass-produced stock part, so the blueprint is cheap.
Now I feed that blueprint into the station's research unit. I pay the station around 5000 credits for the lab time (if I owned my own research unit I wouldn't have to pay).
Now I go fly around making more money and doing my usual stuff, while my research project "cooks". Some time later, I get a message (it should go "bweep!") and it says "research completed! Heavy Thruster developed." It'll have some nice stats:
+45% mass
207% base energy consumption
+180% acceleration
+11% top speed
There, at my research plant, is the physical Heavy Thruster Blueprint item.
Now I take this and make 4 Heavy Thruster Assembly Chips, then though some UI widget I plug the chips into the station's Assembler.
The Chips require 129x Viritium and 16x Heat Tubing and a Medium Thrust Reflector to build each thruster, so I plug these ingredients into the Assembler.
Four and a half minutes later, the station pops out my shiny new thrusters! I equip 'em, try 'em out -- wheee! My ship is faster! A little less maneuverable, and now I'm a gas guzzler, but hey! That's the price you pay. Now... how else can I make money with this mechanic...?
I get a bright idea, and I make some extra chips and sell them on the market for a few hundred credits each.
Then I get a brighter idea and make some finished Heavy Thrusters, and sell those on the market. They each go for a couple thousand, but cost around 500 and some ore to make.
I set up an automatic process of building and marketing thrusters, working overtime to deliver enough ore and materials to the station to keep production going. The revenue from the thrusters pays for the Assembler cycles and the parts, so I just have to mine enough Viritium to keep the Assembler fed.
After a while, the market is glutted with thrusters so I quit production. A few hours later, I've developed a better thruster, so I sell the old blueprint for a couple thousand credits and laugh my way to the bank. By now I've probably profited over a hundred thousand credits on my thruster design!
Okay, have I got this right? Boy, this seems like some sweet gameplay.
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 8:26 pm
#32
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
So far so good. I mean I don't know exactly how you'll start - Josh has his own thoughts on that - but this is a sensible assumed starting point.Alcazabedabra wrote:I pop into existence with a small ship and a thousand credits. I fly around mining and upgrading my equipment, maybe doing a few contracts, and I realize that my biggest problem is that the stock thrusters I'm using are too slow! I'm spending too much time flying around between jobs. I need to make my ship faster!
No. You buy a blank research module at a station. You scour the labour market for Researcher NPCs or put out a contract for them. Or maybe they come as part of the rent contract for the research module. If not, you hire researcher worker NPCs and fly to where they're located (or have them delivered to you), and interface the worker modules (workers are digital consciousnesses embedded into physical hardware units) with the station, and assign the worker NPCs to the research module.Alcazabedabra wrote:I go to the station, and I buy the blueprint for the thruster I'm using. It's a mid-size corvette thruster, a mass-produced stock part, so the blueprint is cheap.
You fly to a facility owned by the de facto governing faction in the region and request that your rented research module is "seeded" with the government faction-owned blueprint module corresponding to the mid-size corvette thruster technology, which is presumably antiquated enough that the governing faction would own it and make it available to the public. You pay 5000 cr. to the governing faction and in return they "seed" the research module aboard your vessel with just enough blueprint data from their own blueprint module for you to begin conducting your own research.Alcazabedabra wrote:Now I feed that blueprint into the station's research unit. I pay the station around 5000 credits for the lab time (if I owned my own research unit I wouldn't have to pay).
Yes.Alcazabedabra wrote:Now I go fly around making more money and doing my usual stuff, while my research project "cooks".
Only if a comms path exists between you and the research facility. Otherwise, a courier will need to be dispatched to inform you. Think of it as the difference between having internet access and not having internet access.Alcazabedabra wrote:Some time later, I get a message (it should go "bweep!") and it says "research completed! Heavy Thruster developed."
At the research facility, the former Stem Research Module (or whatever) has now transformed into a Heavy Thruster Blueprint Module.Alcazabedabra wrote:It'll have some nice stats:
+45% mass
207% base energy consumption
+180% acceleration
+11% top speed
There, at my research plant, is the physical Heavy Thruster Blueprint item.
You purchase a production module and apply the Heavy Thruster Blueprint Module to it, turning it into a Heavy Thruster Production Module. This production module is now able to fabricate:Alcazabedabra wrote:Now I take this and make 4 Heavy Thruster Assembly Chips, then though some UI widget I plug the chips into the station's Assembler.
- Any physical good (within certain constraints) given the corresponding assembler for that good (and the other necessary raw materials).
- Heavy Thruster Assemblers
- Heavy Thrusters without the need to be fed a Heavy Thruster Assembler
Er...what you're calling "chip" is actually the assembler, and what you're calling "assembler" is the production module. Josh uses the term "assembly chips" for now (but don't listen to him, listen to me).Alcazabedabra wrote:The Chips require 129x Viritium and 16x Heat Tubing and a Medium Thrust Reflector to build each thruster, so I plug these ingredients into the Assembler.
Weee! Except it's all implausible because you'd be using Heisenberg Drives to fly around with, and they don't consume fuel you silly goose.Alcazabedabra wrote:Four and a half minutes later, the station pops out my shiny new thrusters! I equip 'em, try 'em out -- wheee! My ship is faster! A little less maneuverable, and now I'm a gas guzzler, but hey! That's the price you pay.
Yes, you can produce assemblers and sell them to other manufacturers.Alcazabedabra wrote:I get a bright idea, and I make some extra chips and sell them on the market for a few hundred credits each.
Sure.Alcazabedabra wrote:Then I get a brighter idea and make some finished Heavy Thrusters, and sell those on the market. They each go for a couple thousand, but cost around 500 and some ore to make.
Production module cycles*, but yes.Alcazabedabra wrote:I set up an automatic process of building and marketing thrusters, working overtime to deliver enough ore and materials to the station to keep production going. The revenue from the thrusters pays for the Assembler cycles and the parts, so I just have to mine enough Viritium to keep the Assembler fed.
Yay!Alcazabedabra wrote:After a while, the market is glutted with thrusters so I quit production. A few hours later, I've developed a better thruster, so I sell the old blueprint for a couple thousand credits and laugh my way to the bank. By now I've probably profited over a hundred thousand credits on my thruster design!
You've got your terminology a bit messed up, a few misunderstandings, but overall you have the gist. And yeah...you have reactionless drives, not thrusters IMO. H-drives!Alcazabedabra wrote:Okay, have I got this right? Boy, this seems like some sweet gameplay.
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 8:41 pm
#33
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
My one problem with this system is that it places too many restrictions (or rather limits ) on what the player and the NPCs can and can not do.
The results of logic, of natural progression? Boring! An expected result? Dull! An obvious next step? Pfui! Where is the fun in that? A dream may soothe, but our nightmares make us run!
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 8:41 pm
#34
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
What does it restrict the player and NPC from doing?Idunno wrote:My one problem with this system is that it places too many restrictions (or rather limits ) on what the player and the NPCs can and can not do.
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 8:50 pm
#35
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
For one, it appears you need government consent for everything. That I feel is a huge restriction. Hardenberg the pirate cares not what the government thinks. If he wants to spread the love and joy of infinite run Micro-assemblers that used to be top-secret to all of a disagreeable factions rivals.ThymineC wrote:What does it restrict the player and NPC from doing?Idunno wrote:My one problem with this system is that it places too many restrictions (or rather limits ) on what the player and the NPCs can and can not do.
The results of logic, of natural progression? Boring! An expected result? Dull! An obvious next step? Pfui! Where is the fun in that? A dream may soothe, but our nightmares make us run!
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 9:01 pm
#36
But a governor-like faction is absolutely not necessary. A smaller faction could offer the same kind of services on a smaller scale. You can have factions that literally go around to other factions, buying their old tech, and then providing that tech for a price to the general public.
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
Nope. I'm just saying that a powerful faction in a region might assume the role of de facto governor, and one of its services might be to provide access to antiquated "public" tech, just like nowadays governments provide access to old media in the public domain.Idunno wrote:For one, it appears you need government consent for everything. That I feel is a huge restriction.ThymineC wrote:What does it restrict the player and NPC from doing?Idunno wrote:My one problem with this system is that it places too many restrictions (or rather limits ) on what the player and the NPCs can and can not do.
But a governor-like faction is absolutely not necessary. A smaller faction could offer the same kind of services on a smaller scale. You can have factions that literally go around to other factions, buying their old tech, and then providing that tech for a price to the general public.
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 9:08 pm
#37
After all if it got stolen twice you obviously haven't put enough effort into guarding it.
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
So what if I decide that I want to own a large flotilla with a full mining, refining and production setup? I don't want to stop by a station in order to restock up on Micro-assemblers. Unless you include a mechanic where after a piece of tech has exchanged hands (say someone stole it) multiple times (say twice) everyone will know how to make it and how to produce the appropriate Micro-assembler.ThymineC wrote:Nope. I'm just saying that a powerful faction in a region might assume the role of de facto governor, and one of its services might be to provide access to antiquated "public" tech, just like nowadays governments provide access to old media in the public domain.
But a governor-like faction is absolutely not necessary. A smaller faction could offer the same kind of services on a smaller scale. You can have factions that literally go around to other factions, buying their old tech, and then providing that tech for a price to the general public.
After all if it got stolen twice you obviously haven't put enough effort into guarding it.
The results of logic, of natural progression? Boring! An expected result? Dull! An obvious next step? Pfui! Where is the fun in that? A dream may soothe, but our nightmares make us run!
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 9:30 pm
#38
But if you want to criticise this aspect of the proposal, you'd be better off raising the complaint with Josh, since this is really his idea. It's hard for me to link on my ipad, but if you check the dev logs from last week you'll see that Josh clearly states that blueprints should be single-run and that they are used similarly to licenses to control the manufacture of particular goods. Assemblers largely replaces the concept of blueprints in that dev log. As you would need to stock up on blueprints under Josh's proposal, so must you stock up on assemblers under mine.
My system might actually be less restrictive than Josh's, in that there's a chance that, if a faction really trusts you, they might seed one or a few of your production modules with their blueprint so that you can start producing their assemblers through your production modules in a closed system. Note that this does not give you access to their blueprint itself.
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
Well that's a shame, because you'll have to.Idunno wrote:So what if I decide that I want to own a large flotilla with a full mining, refining and production setup? I don't want to stop by a station in order to restock up on Micro-assemblers.ThymineC wrote:Nope. I'm just saying that a powerful faction in a region might assume the role of de facto governor, and one of its services might be to provide access to antiquated "public" tech, just like nowadays governments provide access to old media in the public domain.
But a governor-like faction is absolutely not necessary. A smaller faction could offer the same kind of services on a smaller scale. You can have factions that literally go around to other factions, buying their old tech, and then providing that tech for a price to the general public.
But if you want to criticise this aspect of the proposal, you'd be better off raising the complaint with Josh, since this is really his idea. It's hard for me to link on my ipad, but if you check the dev logs from last week you'll see that Josh clearly states that blueprints should be single-run and that they are used similarly to licenses to control the manufacture of particular goods. Assemblers largely replaces the concept of blueprints in that dev log. As you would need to stock up on blueprints under Josh's proposal, so must you stock up on assemblers under mine.
My system might actually be less restrictive than Josh's, in that there's a chance that, if a faction really trusts you, they might seed one or a few of your production modules with their blueprint so that you can start producing their assemblers through your production modules in a closed system. Note that this does not give you access to their blueprint itself.
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 9:36 pm
#39
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
At this point all I want is an option to produce Micro-assemblers on the move.ThymineC wrote:Well that's a shame, because you'll have to.Idunno wrote:So what if I decide that I want to own a large flotilla with a full mining, refining and production setup? I don't want to stop by a station in order to restock up on Micro-assemblers.ThymineC wrote:Nope. I'm just saying that a powerful faction in a region might assume the role of de facto governor, and one of its services might be to provide access to antiquated "public" tech, just like nowadays governments provide access to old media in the public domain.
But a governor-like faction is absolutely not necessary. A smaller faction could offer the same kind of services on a smaller scale. You can have factions that literally go around to other factions, buying their old tech, and then providing that tech for a price to the general public.
But if you want to criticise this aspect of the proposal, you'd be better off raising the complaint with Josh, since this is really his idea. It's hard for me to link on my ipad, but if you check the dev logs from last week you'll see that Josh clearly states that blueprints should be single-run and that they are used similarly to licenses to control the manufacture of particular goods. Assemblers largely replaces the concept of blueprints in that dev log. As you would need to stock up on blueprints under Josh's proposal, so must you stock up on assemblers under mine.
My system might actually be less restrictive than Josh's, in that there's a chance that, if a faction really trusts you, they might seed one or a few of your production modules with their blueprint so that you can start producing their assemblers through your production modules in a closed system. Note that this does not give you access to their blueprint itself.
The results of logic, of natural progression? Boring! An expected result? Dull! An obvious next step? Pfui! Where is the fun in that? A dream may soothe, but our nightmares make us run!
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 9:44 pm
#40
Otherwise, you may need to get really chummy with whatever faction controls the tech, and they may seed your production module for you. Maybe they'll charge an exorbitant fee for it.
If the tech is so old that it's considered to be in the "public domain", just speak to whoever holds the blueprint module and they should seed your production modules for a fee as standard practice.
For a moment, just think of assemblers as licenses. Now, in real life, think of situations where corporations would want to grant unlimited licenses of their products to other people, and in such a way that those people can freely share those licenses with anyone they like.
Also, stop calling them "micro"-assemblers. That was so last week, man, get with the times!
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
If it's your own technology, then there's no problem. Install a production module on your ship and seed it with the appropriate blueprint module. Then all you need to do is feed the production module the appropriate generic raw materials and it will pump out assemblers for you.Idunno wrote: At this point all I want is an option to produce Micro-assemblers on the move.
Otherwise, you may need to get really chummy with whatever faction controls the tech, and they may seed your production module for you. Maybe they'll charge an exorbitant fee for it.
If the tech is so old that it's considered to be in the "public domain", just speak to whoever holds the blueprint module and they should seed your production modules for a fee as standard practice.
For a moment, just think of assemblers as licenses. Now, in real life, think of situations where corporations would want to grant unlimited licenses of their products to other people, and in such a way that those people can freely share those licenses with anyone they like.
Also, stop calling them "micro"-assemblers. That was so last week, man, get with the times!
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 10:01 pm
#41
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
So if I don't like the faction who has the tech that I want I can just steal it from them right? Or from the person who holds the blueprint module? Also if I think of assemblers as licences I suddenly get a lot more options. Hardenberg the pirate, he who hates all forms of governmental control, strikes again. Also can I keep lobbing for my 'Leak' mechanic?ThymineC wrote:If it's your own technology, then there's no problem. Install a production module on your ship and seed it with the appropriate blueprint module. Then all you need to do is feed the production module the appropriate generic raw materials and it will pump out assemblers for you.Idunno wrote: At this point all I want is an option to produce Micro-assemblers on the move.
Otherwise, you may need to get really chummy with whatever faction controls the tech, and they may seed your production module for you. Maybe they'll charge an exorbitant fee for it.
If the tech is so old that it's considered to be in the "public domain", just speak to whoever holds the blueprint module and they should seed your production modules for a fee as standard practice.
For a moment, just think of assemblers as licenses. Now, in real life, think of situations where corporations would want to grant unlimited licenses of their products to other people, and in such a way that those people can freely share those licenses with anyone they like.
Also, stop calling them "micro"-assemblers. That was so last week, man, get with the times!
The results of logic, of natural progression? Boring! An expected result? Dull! An obvious next step? Pfui! Where is the fun in that? A dream may soothe, but our nightmares make us run!
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 10:32 pm
#42
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
Okay, ThymineC, help me out, here. What terminology should I be using, and can we distinguish between your terminology and Josh's?
First, though -- thank you for your line-item response. That does help. I'm just trying to clarify nomenclature. Let me give you the definitions i'm working from and you can correct me where I'm erring.
Blueprints are documents, right? It is data which gives the full and detailed technology of a piece of equipment.
Assembly chips, as Josh calls them, are single-use licenses which contain essential data needed to produce exactly one of whatever product the blueprint describes. They are also data, but the chip is programmed to be usable only once (or a set number of times?).
An assembler, then would be the production unit which actually executes the chip's program and creates the product from parts and materials.
A research unit or "lab" would be the module which does the researching. Needs to be staffed by NPC's I guess. So you'd hire a researcher, rent him a lab, give him a baseline blueprint and tell him to "do science to it".
... Okay, how far off the mark am I?
First, though -- thank you for your line-item response. That does help. I'm just trying to clarify nomenclature. Let me give you the definitions i'm working from and you can correct me where I'm erring.
Blueprints are documents, right? It is data which gives the full and detailed technology of a piece of equipment.
Assembly chips, as Josh calls them, are single-use licenses which contain essential data needed to produce exactly one of whatever product the blueprint describes. They are also data, but the chip is programmed to be usable only once (or a set number of times?).
An assembler, then would be the production unit which actually executes the chip's program and creates the product from parts and materials.
A research unit or "lab" would be the module which does the researching. Needs to be staffed by NPC's I guess. So you'd hire a researcher, rent him a lab, give him a baseline blueprint and tell him to "do science to it".
... Okay, how far off the mark am I?
Post
Wed May 14, 2014 10:46 pm
#43
This is an severe restriction compared to josh's system.
You cant rent research time.
As no station would replace their research facilities just because you want to rent some small scale research time.
It would also be an big waste of resources and "manpower" to seal the research module afterwards.
"i bought this shiny new 100man research module! Yay!" *researches screwdriver* "so.. i have to buy an new laboratory and new engineers... yay..."
That seems pretty illogical to me.
All data security concerns aside.
No profit oriented company would buy research laboratories for every improvement of their technology.
If you say that the "research modules" are easily replaceable and not that expensive, where is the difference to josh's system except that you have to feed now "empty prototypes" into your laboratories?
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
At the research facility, the former Stem Research Module (or whatever) has now transformed into a Heavy Thruster Blueprint Module.[/quote]ThymineC wrote:No. You buy a blank research module at a station. You scour the labour market for Researcher NPCs or put out a contract for them. Or maybe they come as part of the rent contract for the research module. If not, you hire researcher worker NPCs and fly to where they're located (or have them delivered to you), and interface the worker modules (workers are digital consciousnesses embedded into physical hardware units) with the station, and assign the worker NPCs to the research module.Alcazabedabra wrote:I go to the station, and I buy the blueprint for the thruster I'm using. It's a mid-size corvette thruster, a mass-produced stock part, so the blueprint is cheap.
[[Spoiler[/Spoiler]e some nice stats:
+45% mass
207% base energy consumption
+180% acceleration
+11% top speed
There, at my research plant, is the physical Heavy Thruster Blueprint item.
This is an severe restriction compared to josh's system.
You cant rent research time.
As no station would replace their research facilities just because you want to rent some small scale research time.
It would also be an big waste of resources and "manpower" to seal the research module afterwards.
"i bought this shiny new 100man research module! Yay!" *researches screwdriver* "so.. i have to buy an new laboratory and new engineers... yay..."
That seems pretty illogical to me.
All data security concerns aside.
No profit oriented company would buy research laboratories for every improvement of their technology.
If you say that the "research modules" are easily replaceable and not that expensive, where is the difference to josh's system except that you have to feed now "empty prototypes" into your laboratories?
Post
Thu May 15, 2014 5:08 am
#44
Manpower will not be locked in. Researchers can probably be allowed to leave the research module after completion of their work - otherwise they would effectively be single-use and then what's the point of "researcher skill levels"? So long as the blueprint data remains locked inside the blueprint module, there is no problem with re-using researcher NPCs.
We can balance how expensive research modules are and therefore how costly it is to replace them. If it turns out that we need to make them really cheap, and this makes them similar to Josh's already proposed system, then that's neat.
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
Yes, you can try to steal technology from factions you don't like.Idunno wrote:So if I don't like the faction who has the tech that I want I can just steal it from them right? Or from the person who holds the blueprint module? Also if I think of assemblers as licences I suddenly get a lot more options. Hardenberg the pirate, he who hates all forms of governmental control, strikes again. Also can I keep lobbing for my 'Leak' mechanic?
Terminology:Alcazabedabra wrote:Okay, ThymineC, help me out, here. What terminology should I be using, and can we distinguish between your terminology and Josh's?
- Research modules are modules that are used to perform research. They require Researcher worker NPCs. They can produce new technology from first principles or can be seeded with a blueprint module to produce new iterations of existing technology.
- Blueprint modules are what research modules become once they've fully completed researching new technology. Blueprint modules can be used to seed research modules or production modules. They can broadcast partial amounts of data on the blueprint over the comms network.
- Production modules can be used to produce any physical good by default if given the appropriate assembler and raw materials for it. Production modules can be seeded by a blueprint module, and this allows them to produce assemblers of the corresponding type, or to directly produce the associated product without the need to first produce an assembler.
- Assemblers are objects produced by seeded production modules that allow for the production of the corresponding physical good in a production module when combined with the appropriate raw materials. They allow the faction who owns a technology to control the manufacture of goods based on it.
- Physical goods are the end products that are manufactured within production modules. They consume an assembler and the appropriate raw materials to do so.
No. Blueprint modules are physical objects. They are what research modules turn into on completion of research. But yeah, they contain absolutely all information about a given technology.Alcazabedabra wrote:Blueprints are documents, right? It is data which gives the full and detailed technology of a piece of equipment.
As Josh calls them, right.Alcazabedabra wrote:Assembly chips, as Josh calls them, are single-use licenses which contain essential data needed to produce exactly one of whatever product the blueprint describes. They are also data, but the chip is programmed to be usable only once (or a set number of times?).
No. There is no assembly chip in my proposal.Alcazabedabra wrote:An assembler, then would be the production unit which actually executes the chip's program and creates the product from parts and materials.
Yes.Alcazabedabra wrote:A research unit or "lab" would be the module which does the researching. Needs to be staffed by NPC's I guess. So you'd hire a researcher, rent him a lab, give him a baseline blueprint and tell him to "do science to it".
Realistically speaking, you're going to be researching things a lot more valuable than screwdrivers.Cornflakes wrote:This is an severe restriction compared to josh's system.
You cant rent research time.
As no station would replace their research facilities just because you want to rent some small scale research time.
It would also be an big waste of resources and "manpower" to seal the research module afterwards.
"i bought this shiny new 100man research module! Yay!" *researches screwdriver* "so.. i have to buy an new laboratory and new engineers... yay..."
That seems pretty illogical to me.
Manpower will not be locked in. Researchers can probably be allowed to leave the research module after completion of their work - otherwise they would effectively be single-use and then what's the point of "researcher skill levels"? So long as the blueprint data remains locked inside the blueprint module, there is no problem with re-using researcher NPCs.
We can balance how expensive research modules are and therefore how costly it is to replace them. If it turns out that we need to make them really cheap, and this makes them similar to Josh's already proposed system, then that's neat.
Post
Thu May 15, 2014 6:03 am
#45
Re: A Reconstruction of Production Mechanics
Can my researchers be robots?
The results of logic, of natural progression? Boring! An expected result? Dull! An obvious next step? Pfui! Where is the fun in that? A dream may soothe, but our nightmares make us run!