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Limit Theory Objects and Names catalog

#1
Or LTONcat for short (maybe :), is my proposal to discuss some kind of database to allow multiverse object cataloging storage and synchronization in the game, that is to say, allow players to attach textual data to any object and let other players access and retrieve that data.


Details

Full disclosure: this idea is based on an old DOS game called Noctis that procedurally generated a whole galaxy and allowed players to explore, document and share their findings.

A large part of any procedural game is the exploring of the features the engine generates, which can even at the cost of any other gameplay details be a very attractive element in its own right. This is actually what drives my interest in Limit Theory the most.

Having played other games that featured large, procedurally generated worlds or universes, I think the one that better integrated the exploration into the gameplay was this old game called Noctis, that allowed players to generate and share content about the galaxy they were in, through simple textual data.

The game actually exposed an in-ship computer interface that could display this data when approaching a new star system or planet, and for players to query the catalog and insert new entries, which were synchronized through a central server. This was a simple and elegant way to achieve "multi-player" interaction in the old DOS days, even if you never actually met the other explorers in-game you could follow their explorations. Space is very big after all.

What this achieved was a large fan-fiction base for many parts of this galaxy, with clusters of high activity, and trails of data left from explorers trying to reach the far systems on the rim of the galaxy.

I believe this same idea could be adapted to fit into Limit Theory, and it would enrich the game experience helping build a community of players and fan-faction around it.


Implementation

All objects in the game would require (if they don't already) some form of unique identifier (aka. UUID) that the game client could calculate and match against the catalog. There could be some smart way to calculate this UUID that is integrated to the game universe, and can be used in-fiction too (a kind of NGC catalog scheme).

I think the synchronization system could work based from a wiki-like webservice, that would store the object page as its UUID, allowing the game client to retrieve that info directly. An index page could also be auto-generated to list all catalogued UUID's for a given universe seed and grouped by star system, so that the client could pre-fetch data and perform searches. This could allow the catalog to be browsed on the web as well.

The only synchronization rule is the rule of explorers: the first to find, document and submit has the authorship for that object, including naming.


Forward

This would be awesome if integrated to the ship cockpit view, so that the catalog is an actual feature of the ship's computer system. Approaching an object would show its catalog identifier, along with the stored name if any, and option to browse the description showing the original explorer's name along with the universal time and date of discovery.

I invite you to take this idea and expand/twist/adjust it if you liked it.
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Re: Limit Theory Objects and Names catalog

#2
I think this goes well with the forum sharing idea Josh mentioned. +1 for mentioning Noctis

I think this idea could be expanded to allow some kind of asynchronous multiplayer that influences everyone's game (optional of course). Best way i can explain this is by example.

A community of players come together and they all pick the same universe seed. They happen upon a region of space with a lot of fat trade ships and no security. They all decide to play in that region in their individual games. Some decide to be traders, but most begin to pirate. All of the pirates games report to the central server "hey, I'm doing a lot of pirate acts". The central server then sends to all of the same seed players games "hey, increase piracy in this region." AS a result there are more pirate npcs for all player's games in that seed, even though the pirate players are not directly in the same game.

Or if there are two governments at war. The success and failures of the players in their individual games can influence how well or bad the war is going with everyone else.
David -- Proud to be saving the world since 1984
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Re: Limit Theory Objects and Names catalog

#3
I really like your idea of sharing game state between a group of people.

Following from your example, I could join my friends that are already playing on this seed and have each of their individual game states affect my gameplay as you mention, and since I joined, their game clients would now start to pick from my actions in this universe too. Very cool.

Crazy implementation idea: think a distributed source-control system like git, if you are familiar with programming tools, that would handle the merge of states between multiple clients. Now an LT game could be shared on github or even ad-hoc between players. The catalog could work over a distributed system like this too.

What I like of the catalog idea is jumping in on a shared seed, and discovering other players have been around the same systems you are, naming things and leaving notes to be found describing their journeys. Imagine a seed that was played by a large community for some years, and you stumble across these descriptions of great battles, adventures and such on random systems while travelling there. It's almost a kind of procedural story-generation, where the function is the human interaction, if you will :)
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Re: Limit Theory Objects and Names catalog

#5
Indeed, since in the end it still is a single player experience.

You would still have your own game state, but it would query the shared state to adjust some of the values accordingly.

Even the catalog is not strongly authoritative. If you name something and another player names the same thing, the shared state will keep the one who submitted first, but your game would display your own data.
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Re: Limit Theory Objects and Names catalog

#6
I love the ideas both of you have been putting up, and wanted to mention a few of my thoughts. I don't quite understand some of the theories or topics you have brought up, but I will simply add in what I can where I can.

As far as the seeds go, I was wondering how this idea of cataloging would work with the generation of new universes. I suppose this is up to Josh, but when a new game is started, how are the seeds picked? That is, if a seed isn't already given by the player. I am simply taking what I know from the popular game Minecraft, so please bare with me if this is far from the case. In Minecraft, a randomly generated seed is taken from the computer's internal clock. Therefore, no world generated is ever the same, unless the algorithm is the same, and used at the exact same time.

If this was the case for Limit Theory, I would assume that you wouldn't have to deal with (or wouldn't even be able to use) this cataloging system unless you gained knowledge of your current seed, and told someone else to use it. So therefore, in order to really get any of the results that you have talked of above, players would be required to use a predetermined seed, and give that seed to others they wish to 'join in'.

Sorry if it seems I'm just repeating many of the things you've said, I'm just trying to get clarification. What my suggestion is, would be for there to be an option to switch off this cataloging system. That way, if a player wanted to use a popular seed, but did not want to have any other people 'interacting' with the universe, they could do as they wish. I am in no way against your idea, and I actually completely support it and think it would add a whole new level of immersion to the game. I just wanted to voice an opinion that came to my head.
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Re: Limit Theory Objects and Names catalog

#7
Yes, I think you got the right idea. To share the catalog you would have to explicitly join a group of people playing on the same seed. The default would be to have it generate all from scratch. But if later some friends of yours decide to start to play on your universe, you could start sharing your game data with them.

Edit: to clarify, the catalog is always there so you can document your own journey, the sharing is the optional part.
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Re: Limit Theory Objects and Names catalog

#8
Ah, I see now. This is definitely something that would make this game even more interactive, while not having to add the strenuous task of making it truly multiplayer. And having the cataloging work constantly for any game is also what I was hoping, that way in the future you may come back on a spot you have been to before, and there will be notes to yourself or you have named those planets already.

And I suppose that makes sense, since if you ever had other players 'join' your universe, they would see everything you have left behind.

I especially love the idea of having in-game actions affect the other players game play.
croxis wrote:A community of players come together and they all pick the same universe seed. They happen upon a region of space with a lot of fat trade ships and no security. They all decide to play in that region in their individual games. Some decide to be traders, but most begin to pirate. All of the pirates games report to the central server "hey, I'm doing a lot of pirate acts". The central server then sends to all of the same seed players games "hey, increase piracy in this region." AS a result there are more pirate npcs for all player's games in that seed, even though the pirate players are not directly in the same game.
This is something that would make the interactive aspects of the universe even more realistic, and "human". I'm sure the internal AI is very sophisticated, (and from what I've seen of the game from Josh's game play videos, it is) but if you wanted an even more humanistic behavior from the different areas of the universe, you could use a well-known seed and everything that happens has been affected by a real-life human somewhere.
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Re: Limit Theory Objects and Names catalog

#10
I agree! After reading through the perma-death thread, I believe both of these additions would add in nicely. Coming back through part of a universe that you explored previously, and seeing that someone else had named and discovered this section of the universe (you, in a previous life, technically) would be amazingly in depth, and keep the save going in a sense, but with the same realistic events available when dying. In this way, dying would not delete all of your accomplishments and discoveries, but it would still keep you from continuing in that character, and that life. Instead of npc's telling you "Oh, you are a very powerful person and have done a lot in your time", you would be talking with an npc when suddenly they mention, "Yea, i remeber this one guy. He was so powerful and got a lot done when he was around." That idea is precisely what I would love to see in this game!
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Re: Limit Theory Objects and Names catalog

#12
I wonder how difficult would be for Josh to implement an in game browser - as per the original post of this thread to post/collect the naming catalog from a wiki or dedicated app somewhere.

If this could be done then that same browser could also be used for other add on type applications that could be created by the community (vetted by Josh before going live etc) - for example some quick ideas come to mind include mini games - chat - this forum.

Im starting to imagine within the cockpit view or hud a computer/display in the corner that when clicked pops up a console browser that has various options, the naming catalog being one, but other options some of which are local to the game such as adverts for jobs from local planets (i think this is already there but not sure how it is going to be accessed), a screen that lists our businesses we own on various planets (with indicators as to problems that need sorting), and then other external web based content such as the names catalog and potentially limitless content that could be added over time (a community based thing), but controlled/hosted via a LT server to ensure no issues.

Just a thought ... !
LTP Fleet Battles on Youtube
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Re: Limit Theory Objects and Names catalog

#13
Hm, this browser idea got me thinking. Being the computer geek I am, would really love if the in-game ship computer system was extendable.

Again, going back to the Noctis example, it was exactly that: you could put custom executables in a special folder of the game and the in-game system could run these programs and display their output on the ship systems.

Thinking in modern terms, you could have something like a Python interpreter for the ship system that could run these custom built scripts to handle the most diverse tasks, from displaying star system data to in-game chat. The game could expose some mod API to these scripts to read ship and games stats and react accordingly (like dispatch events when you reach a new system, and so on). Maybe even allow the script to handle your ships modules, so you could read scanner data and track enemies, then opening the gun ports ready to fire... your squad ships AI could be fully customizable!

Ok, maybe I am going too far with this :P But yeah, having a generic interface to display custom data would allow the game to be expanded by the community very easily.

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