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Re: Sensors, Scanners, Stealth and A.I. Perception

#31
Katorone wrote:Nowhere in that topic I see Josh saying that wormholes will be used in jump technology... So I'm guessing nothing is set in stone yet?
That's correct. While Josh has mentioned the idea of big 'rooms' for each system, nothing had been stated on how he plans to connect them or how one will travel between them.
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Sensors, Scanners, Stealth and A.I. Perception

#32
DWMagus wrote:
Katorone wrote:Nowhere in that topic I see Josh saying that wormholes will be used in jump technology... So I'm guessing nothing is set in stone yet?
That's correct. While Josh has mentioned the idea of big 'rooms' for each system, nothing had been stated on how he plans to connect them or how one will travel between them.
Awesome!
Concerning this topic my 2 cents are:
Stealth should be an illusion. Like stealth planes do now. They scatter signals and try to hide their own as much as possible. The naked eye will always be able to see the ship, so coming in from the sun, or from a black background is to your advantage. Emissions can be temporarily stored inside the ship to avoid detection, but there's only so much room. On infrared, a small ship would be indistinguishable from a distant star, as long as the ship is far enough. (sonar/radar wouldn't bounce off the ship, so there's no reason to believe the infrared blip is closer than it seems) Heatsinks can further increase heat dispersal, making the ship less obvious against star backgrounds. (Nebulae might be a problem or an advantage.)
With stealth it's important of not getting too close to the object you're stalking. And if you need to be close, come in from the blind spot.

Sensors and Scanners should be kept simple and realistic. Each ship would be able to be outfitted with multiple arrays of scanners (eg normal operation or deep space exploration). Big things (stations, capships) would have more sensors and scanners and would detect you more easily (unless you're trying your hardest not to be detected). All ships and stations would be able to access a global radio band. On this same band factories and ships/traders can make themselves known if they want to.
I'm opposed to having scanners that can detect exactly what cargo you're carrying, so I'm also against scanners that can exactly know what materials an asteroid is made of. (Though, you might want to go mine in the clouds left by a supernova instead of an asteroid. Precious metals come from supernovae.) A nebula could be scanned if it's not too thick.
To know what an asteroid is made off, we could shoot a drill at it. This drill would pass through the asteroid and examine it from within.

AI perception... I believe that to be realistic, an AI should be a dumb as people can be. People believe what they want to believe, so an AI should too. If the AI is inclined to be very relaxed, it shouldn't think twice about a small infrared blip... While an AI that's inclined to be very military and suspicious would want to investigate it and do manoeuvres.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Sensors, Scanners, Stealth and A.I. Perception

#33
Stealth should be an illusion. Like stealth planes do now. They scatter signals and try to hide their own as much as possible. The naked eye will always be able to see the ship, so coming in from the sun, or from a black background is to your advantage. Emissions can be temporarily stored inside the ship to avoid detection, but there's only so much room. On infrared, a small ship would be indistinguishable from a distant star, as long as the ship is far enough. (sonar/radar wouldn't bounce off the ship, so there's no reason to believe the infrared blip is closer than it seems) Heatsinks can further increase heat dispersal, making the ship less obvious against star backgrounds. (Nebulae might be a problem or an advantage.)
With stealth it's important of not getting too close to the object you're stalking. And if you need to be close, come in from the blind spot
You can't base space stealth on realism. Due to space being big, empty, and cold, any spaceship will stand out against the black cold void like a sore thumb. And for the books, heatsinks in space work by emitting the accumulated heat via IR radiation, which is a) why they glow red-hot and b) basically like waving a flashlight around in a dark room.
Let's suffice to say that realism sucks in general and as a solution is best left to things like kerbal space program, which isn't that much fun unless you're either really into orbital mechanics and rocket science or videogame cruelty potential.

I suggest we design a workable gamist solution first, and then start knitting plausibly sounding technobabble around it. But I fear this will include cloaking fields, sensor-hampering nebulae and close-range scans.

P.S.: Here's a link to crush any hopes of realism ever being fun in a space shooter.
Hardenberg was my name
And Terra was my nation
Deep space is my dwelling place
The stars my destination
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Re: Sensors, Scanners, Stealth and A.I. Perception

#34
Hardenberg wrote: I suggest we design a workable gamist solution first, and then start knitting plausibly sounding technobabble around it. But I fear this will include cloaking fields, sensor-hampering nebulae and close-range scans.
Yeah, you're right. My biggest hope in this regard is that every possibility also has a counter. 100% Cloaking / undetectability shouldn't exist imo.
Hardenberg wrote: P.S.: Here's a link to crush any hopes of realism ever being fun in a space shooter.
[/quote]
I knew for a while now that hardcore physics wouldn't be fun... For instance you could launch a simple metal rod without any explosives in the direction of a planet and see it crash with the force of a few nuclear explosions (just make sure it's fast). While this is cool in a way, it wouldn't make for exciting gameplay.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Sensors, Scanners, Stealth and A.I. Perception

#35
I would like to see some kind of Zoom function. Like a Telescopic sighting system. I mean if i'm trying to fire non-lock-on missiles long distance, then i want to be able to pin point the place of impact.
But another big reason for it is if I can see a some space shenanigans going down that is beyond my spec level, then I want to know about it well before i come well into range. If X is stirring up some trouble with Y and I can see Z sneaking in for an easy kill, then I want to watch how it all happens and who is taking the damage.
And lastly, if I decide that being a pirate is going to more lucrative then an honest spice run. Then I want to be able to Zoom in, use my scanner on their cargo hold, decide if its worth it, BEFORE I get to the point of no return.

I mean space is a big place, especially a limitless procedural one. Why should I use my Mk1 eye ball if everything else is so advanced?

As to how this would look and function? That is really up to interpretation, how would you like it?
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Re: Sensors, Scanners, Stealth and A.I. Perception

#37
KiwiSteve wrote:I would like to see some kind of Zoom function. Like a Telescopic sighting system.
I get what you're saying.

My only concern is that I don't know how much use this would be. From what we've seen in the videos and the prototype, nothing is fast enough (except for beams, more on that in a moment) to be able to utilize a zoom effectively. In most FPS games where you can aim down the sights or a scope on a sniper rifle, it assumes your shots are fast enough that leading your target is not needed much (if at all).

All weapons take time to have their projectiles travel. Unless it's a stationary target, a zoom would almost be useless as your target would be far away.

Currently, there is already a lead indicator in the game. We haven't seen it for a bit, but it's there. The zoom function makes sense if you're targeting a stationary object like a station from far away (and actually a cool idea too, IMO).

I'm not sure how long projectiles 'live' in the game though. By default, I'm guessing that a missile won't last long enough to get far enough away to need a zoom function. But either way, that should be a simple modification to remedy. Just not sure about vanilla.
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Sensors, Scanners, Stealth and A.I. Perception

#41
Katorone wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote:Regardless of its use for accurate firing, it would surely be convenient as binocular function.
Exactly! It's a great tool for examining things that aren't within sensor range yet. :D
I never thought of that. It makes sense. Akin to that guy in the crow's nest on ships going 'Land ho!' (Planet ho?)
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Sensors, Scanners, Stealth and A.I. Perception

#42
On the note of stealth, or more accurately "natural jamming", I'd like to raise the spectre of this rather old thread:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2348&start=30

where I suggested using sensor signal normalization to essentially polarize space in terms of combat. Coming out of the sun, or in any direction even close to the sun (or any high-emission source) would make you difficult to spot via scanner because your scanner would essentially be blinded. (edit - basically, positional warfare would become quite significant since there would now be concepts of "upwind" and "downwind" within a sector. It would change invasion/defence dynamics on both the tactical and strategic level)

There were good points raised as to why the idea may not have worked or indeed why it wasn't really plausible in a science fiction context, but in this post-LTSL environment I thought it could be worth raising as, at the very least, a mod idea.
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Re: Sensors, Scanners, Stealth and A.I. Perception

#43
Scytale wrote: There were good points raised as to why the idea may not have worked or indeed why it wasn't really plausible in a science fiction context, but in this post-LTSL environment I thought it could be worth raising as, at the very least, a mod idea.
And such is the curse of LTSL. :D :clap:
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.

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