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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#301
Thats just his techno-babble explanation. Here is one I can come up with fairly quickly: Some subspace connections have a shorter distance to travel in higher dimensional planes, and are thus stronger, costing less energy to traverse. But that says nothing of the two endpoints locations in regular space...
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#302
Hyperion wrote:Thats just his techno-babble explanation. Here is one I can come up with fairly quickly: Some subspace connections have a shorter distance to travel in higher dimensional planes, and are thus stronger, costing less energy to traverse. But that says nothing of the two endpoints locations in regular space...
That might be the case, but consider also the broader context: procedurally generated star clusters, and then, more immediate to the quote, introducing connectivity between star systems.

Do you think it more likely that he was working all this out with subspace in mind rather than regular space? Or was he considering both? :?

I'll add because I'm curious: has he mentioned anywhere what he envisions as the nature of the relationship between regular space and subspace in the LT universe?
"omg such tech many efficiency WOW" ~ Josh Parnell
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#303
Baile nam Fonn wrote:
Hyperion wrote:Thats just his techno-babble explanation. Here is one I can come up with fairly quickly: Some subspace connections have a shorter distance to travel in higher dimensional planes, and are thus stronger, costing less energy to traverse. But that says nothing of the two endpoints locations in regular space...
That might be the case, but consider also the broader context: procedurally generated star clusters, and then, more immediate to the quote, introducing connectivity between star systems.

Do you think it more likely that he was working all this out with subspace in mind rather than regular space? Or was he considering both? :?

I'll add because I'm curious: has he mentioned anywhere what he envisions as the nature of the relationship between regular space and subspace in the LT universe?
I think unless objects in one system can affect other systems even if they aren't directly connected by wormhole (as would be the case with Cornflakes' anti-jumpdrive bubble), it's a moot point. Either wormholes are the only things that connect systems together or they aren't. And if they aren't why can't we take greater advantage of whatever those other systems are? If we can just throw up fields in space that connect multiple branches of the wormhole network without going through the trunks, why can't we just fly from one system to another without wormholes at all?
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#305
Because Josh's technobabble is not more valid than anyone else's. I am sure Thymine could have thrown together something interesting that would fit all the information, but it too would be limited by the quirks of the LT engine.

AFAIK, the only way anything in a system can affect any thing outside of it is via the wormhole network, that the only "real" space that exists is the particular infinite room you are currently in. I remember that the scenegraph changed and allowed for at least a possibility that multiple systems could exist in a single "room" But I don't remember that it was ever said wormholes would be related to that.

if wormhole endpoints are close to one another in real space then maybe you could indeed fly out from one system to another via engine power and catch the local wormhole in the next system, if they aren't, then you can visit system after system but the only wormholes you will find are back in the one you first left.

Not saying that one way is better than another, nor is realism a valid consideration, but it does depend on how the engine actually connects systems to one another as to whether such a field would work.
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#306
Hyperion wrote: AFAIK, the only way anything in a system can affect any thing outside of it is via the wormhole network, that the only "real" space that exists is the particular infinite room you are currently in. I remember that the scenegraph changed and allowed for at least a possibility that multiple systems could exist in a single "room" But I don't remember that it was ever said wormholes would be related to that.
that could as well be because interstellar distances are still interstellar
if the only things that are available in are only sublight capable it doesnt make any difference if the systems are a billion lightyears or just 1 apart,
in game terms they are too far from each other to travel to directly.

so why use a technobabble that just creates uneccesary limitations for eventual continous-ftl mods?
real-space distance does the same without creating strange lore effects.

btw: regardless of what distances are (subspace or real space) effects of devices that affect sub-space tech would likely follow the same rules as the devices creating those effects.
so regardless of normal space or subspace distance the interdiction fields create a "sphere" of "you dont jump here".


also: the only valid technobabble is joshs, 'cause its joshs technobabble in joshs game.
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#307
Only if Josh programs the technobabble into actual game mechanics that impose specifics on how various areas of the game interact. Until then, his "let's pretend game mechanic X represents Y" is no more valid than anyone else's.

The technobabble that says wormholes connect various points that need not be closely positioned in real space offers an explanation as to why you can't just fly out and eventually hit the same systems you would hit if you traveled by wormhole, that for some reason some stars have wormholes nearby and others don't. To me this is simply more aesthetically pleasing, more naturalistic than the idea of every system having a wormhole as reliably as a subway station specifically so spaceships can travel between them. It is more aesthetically pleasing to me to imagine that the universe of LT is primarily those systems with the sheer luck to have had access to the vast wormhole network, but not to say that there aren't plenty of other theoretically visitable stars a ways away from the system where a wormhole exists.

Gameplay wise it means that the "rooms" are not nearly so close to one another, but if multiple systems can be rendered in a single area, then the "rooms" are much bigger and more complex, offering more opportunities.

Imagine if you will, hiding not in the system with a wormhole, but in the system next to it. It may be a great place for a hidden base. Or imagine finding that a system nearby also has a wormhole, but on the network map, it's actually in a whole different cluster. You might have just found a backdoor into a fortress because they were guarding the wormholes, not the vast sky in all directions.

also
regardless of what distances are (subspace or real space) effects of devices that affect sub-space tech would likely follow the same rules as the devices creating those effects.
so regardless of normal space
Fair enough, that would make sense.
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#308
Hyperion wrote:Only if Josh programs the technobabble into actual game mechanics that impose specifics on how various areas of the game interact. Until then, his "let's pretend game mechanic X represents Y" is no more valid than anyone else's.
well, what he says is usually the lore of the game
and if he says "the distance between 2 stars is in real space and wormhole physics go after real world distances"
there isnt much space for interpreting the intent of the author.
Hyperion wrote: The technobabble that says wormholes connect various points that need not be closely positioned in real space offers an explanation as to why you can't just fly out and eventually hit the same systems you would hit if you traveled by wormhole, that for some reason some stars have wormholes nearby and others don't. To me this is simply more aesthetically pleasing, more naturalistic than the idea of every system having a wormhole as reliably as a subway station specifically so spaceships can travel between them. It is more aesthetically pleasing to me to imagine that the universe of LT is primarily those systems with the sheer luck to have had access to the vast wormhole network, but not to say that there aren't plenty of other theoretically visitable stars a ways away from the system where a wormhole exists.

Gameplay wise it means that the "rooms" are not nearly so close to one another, but if multiple systems can be rendered in a single area, then the "rooms" are much bigger and more complex, offering more opportunities.

Imagine if you will, hiding not in the system with a wormhole, but in the system next to it. It may be a great place for a hidden base. Or imagine finding that a system nearby also has a wormhole, but on the network map, it's actually in a whole different cluster. You might have just found a backdoor into a fortress because they were guarding the wormholes, not the vast sky in all directions.
i also imagine that by far not every system has wormhole access, but only a percent or even far less.
else the 5 lightyears between alpha centauri and earth would be enough to reach many other systems from an usual star system
as sol is uncommonly isolated.
and it would feel strange if the farthest jump i'd ever need to make would only be 5ly.
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#309
another idea related to "interdiction fields"

Attractors.

they also create a bubble of effect, but instead of being a no-go zone they force your jump to end up at the location of the interdictor
(with associated energy needs of the wormhole).

so instead of keeping strangers from warping to points you dont want them, you force them to a point where they dont want to be
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#310
Hyperion wrote:The technobabble that says wormholes connect various points that need not be closely positioned in real space offers an explanation as to why you can't just fly out and eventually hit the same systems you would hit if you traveled by wormhole, that for some reason some stars have wormholes nearby and others don't. To me this is simply more aesthetically pleasing, more naturalistic than the idea of every system having a wormhole as reliably as a subway station specifically so spaceships can travel between them. It is more aesthetically pleasing to me to imagine that the universe of LT is primarily those systems with the sheer luck to have had access to the vast wormhole network, but not to say that there aren't plenty of other theoretically visitable stars a ways away from the system where a wormhole exists.
That actually gives me a funny idea.

In LT, we tend to think first/primarily about the areas of normal space we'll be flying around in that contain what look like real stuff. And then we say, "oh, and they're connected to each other by these wormhole thingies so that you can fly from one system to another."

What if we thought about that the other way around?

What if reality in LT was mostly filled with strings of some exotic form, and at random places bubbles of "normal" space formed. Some -- most? -- might not intersect a string; they would be cut off from all other systems. Some might intersect one string, in which case there'd be two "wormholes" in that system, each of which leads to another system. And a few might emerge in a place where multiple strings are massed, making them junction points for interstellar travel... or scarred, contested ruins occupied only by timid scavengers?

Does this reversal of the order of the structure of reality in LT do anything for this discussion? (Apologies if someone else has already suggested something like this.)
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#311
You mean something like this? Image in that sublight travel is possible or maybe common by way of hyperwarp lanes while travel between clusters of stars is theoretically possible by sublight, but will almost certainly be by wormhole? and the wormhole network may or may not end up at another star? it might even pop out in empty space?
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#312
Hyperion wrote:You mean something like this?
Spoiler:      SHOW
Image
in that sublight travel is possible or maybe common by way of hyperwarp lanes while travel between clusters of stars is theoretically possible by sublight, but will almost certainly be by wormhole? and the wormhole network may or may not end up at another star? it might even pop out in empty space?

no, flat means that every system is a self-contained bubble of spacetime inside a greater universe, and the only way between the bubbles are the strings.




flat:

it surely intersects with the old idea of pocket universes..

but for now i'll just write out what i have thought about that. ^^
  1. we get a new name for hyperspace then: webspace :ghost:
  2. why are there no (or very very few) absolutely empty space bubbles on the net?
    i'd think that is because the strings are attracted by gravity, and as only bubbles with content generate gravity, only those have string connections.

    this gives a few interesting concepts.
    1. attractors (like i proposed a few posts earlier) would not reroute all jumpdrive jumps but would relocate all wormholes in the system to their position
      this would create a concentration of wormholes at the point of the attractor station
      what use this would have is debatable, but better have an idea and not use it than to not have the idea
    2. you could "pull" a connection out of a system and into another one
      when two systems are nearby you could create a big gravity well generator in one and pull all the strings from the other system and connect them to your own

      this could also be done by misusing jumpgates, if the string forms a "v" and you put jumpgates at the upper ends of the "v" and let them pull, you create a direct connection between those 2 at the expense of the 3rd system.
      putting a jumpgate into the third system would prevent removal of the end its sitting on
      this would also create interesting offensive uses, destroy an enemy jumpgate to pull out one of their wormhole connections for you....
  3. pulling strings taut
    we could assume that the fact of how "taut" a string is pulled is equivalent to the "charge" of the classic wormhole idea
    when you travel along a wormhole you "latch" onto the string and use a bit of its tension energy to propel yourself along the string, thereby the string is less taut afterwards.

    the natural recharge of the wormholes would simply be the gravitational pull of the star system where the wormhole exits

    a jumpgate would create extra pulling force to increase the recharge rate of the connection
    (or would rearrange connections in other systems!)
  4. there could be a new form of in-system drive: the string surfer.
    you latch onto a string that goes through a system and travel very fast along it, but only from one wormhole to another wormhole which must both be caused by the same string
    a railway of sorts between wormholes in a system
    (this paths could and should do some curving through the system, following the spline which the string forms)
thats all i can think of now, maybe more later ^^
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#313
a small idea that just popped to my mind regarding gazz' insistence on a "jump anomaly" that announces the arrival of a jumping ship:

when creating a wormhole theres a preset "you may not charge now" period that you cannot change by throwing more money at it.

so instead of
activate wormhole module ->
throw charge at the wormhole ->
jump


there is
activate wormhole module ->
wait until arbitary timer has run down ->
charge wormhole ->
jump


creating the "jump anomaly" effect that announces the arrival of something

the creation of the jump anomaly is an independent process to charging it.
the energy needed for creating it could be a parameter of the WHM used to create it

and the time needed to accumulate that power could also be an independent parameter
decoupling it from the energy needed to make the wormhole actually traversable
giving a classic "jumpdrive charging" mechanic, that could be balanced independently of the capability of jumpgates.


the time between jumps / time needed to create a wormhole is independent from the amount of money/capability you throw at it.
although the maximum capacity and speed needed to make the newly created wormhole usable is dependent on the amount of money you throw at it.
but the more ships can pour energy into it, the more ships you have to drag around with you.

this mechanic also makes an incentive for jumpgates to be active all the time, instead of opening and closing as needed.
as it takes time independent of the wormhole module to create a usable wormhole.
less frequented gates may shut down between travellers, but then you have to wait a while until the gate is actually usable again

so, now in a condensed form thats not just my thoughts written down as they happen ._.

on activation of the jumpdrive a jump anomaly gets created.
this jump anomaly takes time to transform into a wormhole.
this time is fixed (or dependent on distance, space terrain, etc)
after the time the jump anomaly gets a wormhole and follows the mechanics i've outlined in the OP.

the energy needed to form a jump anomaly is contained inside the jumpdrive (and is independent from boost capacitors eventually needed to boost the wormhole to usable capacities) "jumpdrive charging"
maximum charging rate for this is a fixed amount (for a specific manufacture of WHM)
the ship creating the jump anomaly is fixed in position near the jump anomaly (or alternatively bad things (tm) happen when it moves away)
if we allow a jump to be aborted all the "jump charge" is wasted (in addition to the bad things)
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#314
Hyperion, that's close except for the apparent physical clustering of star systems.

You wouldn't actually need that in a universe where the medium-level (systems connected to each other through wormholes) structure is defined not by physical proximity of systems but their connective relationships to each other as nodes. System A and System B might be directly connected, and so would appear next to each other on a node map, but their locations on the string could be immensely farther apart than System A and System C if System C were on a nearby but separate string.

This can work as long as travel time is invariant between any two systems on a string regardless of distance between those systems on the string.

And Cornflakes, that is some nice theorycrafting. I like it: "webspace." :thumbup:

A thought that comes to mind is actually the opposite of your initial suggestion #2. Rather than moving the strings, what if you could "move" the entire bubble of normal space-time?

This would be to cause the whole pocket universe of your star system to slide through webspace, changing the location of the wormhole endpoints in your system, then causing them to be gone entirely, then maybe (depending on the density of strings in webspace) seeing new wormholes appear as you move your star system onto a new string.

If you had a lot of free time, eventually this would allow you to map webspace. That is, you could create a version of a 3D diagram of the local strings by observing which wormholes appear as you move through webspace and testing where they lead. I say a "version" of a map because, due to invariant-time travel, you couldn't judge distances; you could only know the general conformation of strings in webspace -- tentative maps showing the general location of strings.

That could be pretty useful. :)
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Re: Jumpdrives, Jumpgates and Wormholes

#315
On moving star systems i only say:

Weeee! Colliding star systems! \o/

because if you can occupy "physical space" inside webspace and can move those bubbles, you can collide those bubbles


this would also bring a new strategic element
Take your system and move it in the way of your opponents trade route, instead of a single jump between safe spots theres suddenly a system full of enemy warships in between :ghost:

Or just fly your system-fleet into your enemies system :ghost:

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