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Re: Legendary Items

#31
McDuff wrote:
Hardenberg wrote: Wouldn't that be overlapping with the research system? Research already modifies the stats of a baseline item. Bolting another set of modifiers onto that seems a tad bit like overkill to me, not to mention that you get an item glut beyond what will already happen in the game. It's one thing to have 20 variations of laser based weaponry in the local cluster. It's sheer madness if you get another 20 variations per laser due to the materials used - it makes comparing things painful.
Why? You're not making stuff, you're just buying it. You look at the stats - weight, power requirements, mass, DPS, cost etc, and make a decision.

Why do you even care as long as the shops are full of things you can buy?
good luck trying to build up a fleet if there are not enough lasers of a given type to arm a wing of fighters.

i think that is hardenbergs problem
(although he wont build fleets)
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Re: Legendary Items

#32
hmmm or maybe a small cash of them instead in a single gun.
(like 2-6 of them) :ghost:

I am think of a reward for small fleets, pirates, explorers, and rouges in general.
rather than epic weapons for an entire empire.

Edit: of course the legandary item could be a battle ship primary weapon size.
(fire the Wave motion gun !!!) :ghost:
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Last edited by N810 on Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
"A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke
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Re: Legendary Items

#33
Hardenberg wrote:What good is Zappy the Wonder Gun™ if it's outperformed by a full battery of "normal" guns and you've basically got to choose between hitting things with all guns at once, or just with Zappy because tracking and projectile speed don't match? I've grown to loathe these things. Their only use is mounting them in the den and using them as conversational pieces...

"Quite the clunker, my dear. Came across this beast in the Aldebaran sector while sawing derelicts apart for a living. Hefty punch, too, but the beam colour clashed terribly with the rest of my armaments. Fabulous particle effects, though."
:thumbup: :clap:
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
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Re: Legendary Items

#34
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
McDuff wrote:
Hardenberg wrote: Wouldn't that be overlapping with the research system? Research already modifies the stats of a baseline item. Bolting another set of modifiers onto that seems a tad bit like overkill to me, not to mention that you get an item glut beyond what will already happen in the game. It's one thing to have 20 variations of laser based weaponry in the local cluster. It's sheer madness if you get another 20 variations per laser due to the materials used - it makes comparing things painful.
Why? You're not making stuff, you're just buying it. You look at the stats - weight, power requirements, mass, DPS, cost etc, and make a decision.

Why do you even care as long as the shops are full of things you can buy?
good luck trying to build up a fleet if there are not enough lasers of a given type to arm a wing of fighters.

i think that is hardenbergs problem
(although he wont build fleets)
"Dear manufacturer of the X-22 laser gun. I would like to purchase 300 of these guns directly from you. I am prepared to pay 2,000cr per item. Please advise on how soon you can make delivery of this quantity."

ETA also "object class" matters here. Frankly if the weapons on my ships are approximately the same, it's not going to matter overmuch if they're made by a different manufacturer. If I can say "stick any laser with approx these stats on this bit here" then the market will sort it out.
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Re: Legendary Items

#35
Well, I asked to be vaulted and I was. I don't really see anything definite from Josh in all that though; just concepts he was running with at the time, and many of them well over 5-6 months old. That's a lifetime in LT-development terms. I'm going to say that my point still holds: "Much of this depends on how sophisticated blueprints are when it comes to materials. Josh hasn't mentioned anything about blueprints for quite some time, so I'm not really sure what his thinking is these days" (though I now suspect that Josh will probably write a monster dev log tomorrow that lays out the entire concept... :)).

Incidentally, that second quote ("...perhaps a few exotics as Gazz mentioned for advanced stuff") could almost be tailor made for this thread.
Hardenberg wrote:"Yaaay. Another single un-reproduceable special snowflake gun which doesn't match the tracking/projectile speed patterns of our main turret batteries. Be a dear and toss it into the "resale" bin, will you?"

What good is Zappy the Wonder Gun™ if it's outperformed by a full battery of "normal" guns and you've basically got to choose between hitting things with all guns at once, or just with Zappy because tracking and projectile speed don't match? I've grown to loathe these things. Their only use is mounting them in the den and using them as conversational pieces...

"Quite the clunker, my dear. Came across this beast in the Aldebaran sector while sawing derelicts apart for a living. Hefty punch, too, but the beam colour clashed terribly with the rest of my armaments. Fabulous particle effects, though."
Looking back, I can recall spending quite a lot of time in Freelancer with guns of variable fire rates and projectile speeds. Sometimes the loadout wouldn't even be symmetric :o. Happy times. Besides, asserting inferior properties for a made-up item produced by a theoretical feature isn't a great argument for excluding said feature. I could assert that Zappy has superior tracking rates, making a combined battery significantly better. QED, we must have it?

Whilst I'm not married to the idea, I still quite like the concept of having one off significant bonuses tied to extremely rare (or "exotic") materials. It would nicely together up three parts of the game: exploration (since it would be unlikely that rare materials are found in well developed systems); prospecting/mining (to get hold of the ore); research (to create blueprints that get the bonus). There's also quite a bit of strategy involved in deciding to sell rare ore to free up credits or keep it in case of a killer research bonus...?
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Re: Legendary Items

#36
Given Josh's post on upgradeable items, I feel this thread has relevance, if somewhat tangentially. The concepts discussed, around being able to create more powerful items from existing blueprints using more exotic and rare materials still appeals to me, and would play directly in the space that Josh was mooting I reckon.

I'll have more to say later, am at work. :(
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Re: Legendary Items

#37
Three posts in a row, separated by many months/years. I'm having this conversation with myself!

Anyway, I thought Josh's latest forum missive, this was worth raising again.
Josh wrote:This also opens the door for effects like natural 'construction variance,' whereby you might get an object that's within +-20% of the blueprint specs, for example, if you're using cheap construction technology, whereas you might hit it square on the nose or even get a bit of bonus % over the specs if you're using a very-high-tech construction module. Just one of many possibilities opened up as of late. Like I hashed out in a dev log long, long ago, the ability to modify and upgrade individual objects should really help to make the player reward more granular in the game (as well as to provide more variety!)
To my mind this is very close to what I was talking about in this thread over two years ago:
mcsven wrote:Populate the game with some form of "Neverfindium": the rarest element in the universe. Make it so that it really is almost impossible to find it, and even if you do it's only in very small quantities.

Every now and again when you research a new node, one of the criteria that it generates is a bonus if you can construct it using Neverfindium. The bonus would be substantial, making the item considerably better than if constructed using normal materials.
Some of my forum posts I look back on and think "er, no" - but this one I am still keen on. Thoughts?
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Re: Legendary Items

#38
I don't believe that's what Josh meant. Josh was describing construction methods using refined ores.

As Josh stated:
Josh wrote: if you're using cheap construction technology, whereas you might hit it square on the nose or even get a bit of bonus % over the specs if you're using a very-high-tech construction module.
There isn't any reference to rare materials, and quite frankly, I'm against the idea of there being super rare materials in Limit Theory. My feeling is that there should only be a limited number of moderately available raw resources which can be combined in various ways to create different items/assembly chips/blueprints. I think I've discussed this in other threads so I won't explain my reasoning here.
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Re: Legendary Items

#39
Im also against a special "makes everything uber" resource.

i'd prefer it with every material having unique stats to influence the stats of the finished product.
If a material happens to be better for a given application than what you are using, its an upgrade for that application without doing extra research.

Or maybe material characteristics define the boundaries of the statistics a piece of equipment can have, and the actual point where the equipment sits in stat space is defined by research and/or production techniques.

production techniques could then again tweak the stats from the blueprint during production.
Production techniques define how far one can push the stats without having negative effects applied to the end product.

the characteristics of the fabber used to build the equipment define the outer boundaries of the techniques one can use.
So if you are using a low quality fabber you cant use highly sophisticated techniques.

All in all the best results are archieved when highly specialised materials are used in a high tech fabber with advanced techniques.

Techniques should also be bound to some area in the tech tree (or maybe even to a certain blueprint), as methods which worked with stuff from 50 years ago likely wont apply to new tech anymore.

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