Return to “Suggestions”

Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#226
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
davdav wrote: Well, it's probably the case for a small planet like Earth or a small solar system, but for the universe where transmissions are limited by spped of light, it's not obvious.
So you object to interstellar travel and to rts/4x gameplay over multiple systems in LT?
:roll:

the lightspeed barrier is in lt just like the sound barrier today, annoying, but not impossible to cross/work around.

I guess its also pretty accepted canon that there will be some kind of informational infrastructure in LT, enabling cheap interstellar communications for short to medium interstellar ranges.
In a lot of space games, this barrier exists for data exchanges, but I agree not for travels. Take ED : you can't contact another solar system to get sell prices. Same thing for XRebirth. I think for SC data will be transfered by ships as normal goods.

And what is the interest of discovery if you can have every data of every little corner of the full universe ? Specially with research data than can be considered as top secret ?
Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#227
davdav wrote: In a lot of space games, this barrier exists for data exchanges, but I agree not for travels. Take ED : you can't contact another solar system to get sell prices. Same thing for XRebirth. I think for SC data will be transfered by ships as normal goods.

And what is the interest of discovery if you can have every data of every little corner of the full universe ? Specially with research data than can be considered as top secret ?
Cornflakes_91 wrote: So you object to rts/4x gameplay over multiple systems in LT?
:roll:

your "lack of discovery" assumes that theres information already available somewhere and if its available to someone you know and can contact.

Also: basic research never has been top secret, too many people involved and limited information exchange would shunt the efforts.

Basic research without universities doesnt work.


Also: there is FTL comms in xr, you can command your ships in other systems as well as the ones that are in your system.

Also: the lore of other space games doesnt have to do anything with LT, other lore is other lore.
Its like arguing in startrek with the death star.
Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#229
Cornflakes_91 wrote: Also: the lore of other space games doesnt have to do anything with LT, other lore is other lore.
Its like arguing in startrek with the death star.
Well, half the points here were abouts horses, trains, cars, or others things.
It's like arguing in startrek with potatoes ;)

I'm arguing with my poor english using other space game because like LT, they use what they consider as fun.
Cornflakes_91 wrote: There is no explicit technology to steal or reverse engineer.
In my opinion, it's more fun to be able to steal or reverse engineer in a game like LT.
Intel research marketting is not my interest (startrek and potatoes)...
Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#230
davdav wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote: There is no explicit technology to steal or reverse engineer.
In my opinion, it's more fun to be able to steal or reverse engineer in a game like LT.
Intel research marketting is not my interest (startrek and potatoes)...
Im not saying that there will be nothing to steal or reverse engineer in general.

But theres nothing explicit to reverse engineer for mcduffs breakthroughs.
They are based on public research which then everyone implements in his own way.

If you are part of the same community you dont have to steal the basic research, as you already know it from the public domain.

You can steal the individual implementations of the technology, though.


Also: the car/horse/train discussion is valid, as it was to symbolise relative differences.

Like comparing archer-era warp 5 drives to picard era warp 9+ drives.

Comparing ed/sc lore with lt lore is like saying "a star destroyer can cover the galaxies diameter in weeks(iirc) , why does the voyager need decades for that?"

2 completely unrelated scifi universes are not comparable.
Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#231
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
davdav wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote: There is no explicit technology to steal or reverse engineer.
In my opinion, it's more fun to be able to steal or reverse engineer in a game like LT.
Intel research marketting is not my interest (startrek and potatoes)...
Im not saying that there will be nothing to steal or reverse engineer in general.

But theres nothing explicit to reverse engineer for mcduffs breakthroughs.
They are based on public research which then everyone implements in his own way.

If you are part of the same community you dont have to steal the basic research, as you already know it from the public domain.

You can steal the individual implementations of the technology, though.


Also: the car/horse/train discussion is valid, as it was to symbolise relative differences.

Like comparing archer-era warp 5 drives to picard era warp 9+ drives.

Comparing ed/sc lore with lt lore is like saying "a star destroyer can cover the galaxies diameter in weeks(iirc) , why does the voyager need decades for that?"

2 completely unrelated scifi universes are not comparable.
My problem is that I feel that "public research", "public domain", "university" are real life notions. Why it has to be the same way in LT ?

For example and to understand your position :
In a corner of the LT galaxy, ships uses a shield that can almost fully reflect laser beams. The tech is kept secret for strategic purpose and only sold to friend of the local "race".
For you, this kind of example :
- is impossible in LT because this kind of tech is public domain
- has to be stolen or reverse engineering ?
Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#232
davdav wrote: My problem is that I feel that "public research", "public domain", "university" are real life notions. Why it has to be the same way in LT ?
Because the concept mcduff outlined and i agree with uses the concept of public domain ;)
davdav wrote: For example and to understand your position :
In a corner of the LT galaxy, ships uses a shield that can almost fully reflect laser beams. The tech is kept secret for strategic purpose and only sold to friend of the local "race".
For you, this kind of example :
- is impossible in LT because this kind of tech is public domain
- has to be stolen or reverse engineering ?
Other viewpoint:

There is a publically available process to build reflective shields, but nobody has managed to actually engineer a device using the effect.

The "secret sauce" is a combination of custom modifications of publically known processes that lead to a practical application of the reflective property.

Everybody knows what it does and which phenomena are exploited, but nobody can replicate the engineering that made it possible.


Public, real life example: the oculus rift.
There is nothing innpvative in the technologies they use, gyroscopes, screens and a bit of software.
Still its far from being an publically available device that everyone can replicate instantly.

Or the brand new combat lasers of the us marine.
You can build a gas laser in your garage, with tools you can get from an electric store, still you cant build multi-kilowatt combat lasers ;)

You can steal the engineering they did, but you dont have to steal the basic principles, as they are in the public domain
Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#233
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
davdav wrote: My problem is that I feel that "public research", "public domain", "university" are real life notions. Why it has to be the same way in LT ?
Because the concept mcduff outlined and i agree with uses the concept of public domain ;)
davdav wrote: For example and to understand your position :
In a corner of the LT galaxy, ships uses a shield that can almost fully reflect laser beams. The tech is kept secret for strategic purpose and only sold to friend of the local "race".
For you, this kind of example :
- is impossible in LT because this kind of tech is public domain
- has to be stolen or reverse engineering ?
Other viewpoint:

There is a publically available process to build reflective shields, but nobody has managed to actually engineer a device using the effect.

The "secret sauce" is a combination of custom modifications of publically known processes that lead to a practical application of the reflective property.

Everybody knows what it does and which phenomena are exploited, but nobody can replicate the engineering that made it possible.


Public, real life example: the oculus rift.
There is nothing innpvative in the technologies they use, gyroscopes, screens and a bit of software.
Still its far from being an publically available device that everyone can replicate instantly.

Or the brand new combat lasers of the us marine.
You can build a gas laser in your garage, with tools you can get from an electric store, still you cant build multi-kilowatt combat lasers ;)

You can steal the engineering they did, but you dont have to steal the basic principles, as they are in the public domain
I think it's fine if you don't have a list ingame of available public domain research : I just want to have the "WOW ! AMAZING!" effect when I find a new unhabited sector with a new weapon/tech I didn't know the existance.
Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#234
Cornflakes_91 wrote: your "lack of discovery" assumes that theres information already available somewhere and if its available to someone you know and can contact.
I'm a little bit desapointed by that. Is there a topic about discovery in LT? I can't find it.
With speed of light limit disabled for every points of the game, the player could buy an universe map at the first station and there is nothing to discover, it's like google maps.

Sorry for the HS.
Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#235
davdav wrote: I think it's fine if you don't have a list ingame of available public domain research : I just want to have the "WOW ! AMAZING!" effect when I find a new unhabited sector with a new weapon/tech I didn't know the existance.
The public domain isnt from realism and "i want it in there", its there to prevent runaway development of a single entity which cant be beaten by "inside forces".

Think of a freelancer like setting, where in liberty space a single faction starts to runaway with research, out-everythinging every other faction in liberty space, without any hope for them of ever catching up.
As they control mining, production, research.

Leading to a continously increasing advantage for the researching faction.

with a public domain research sheme, the whole liberty sector would be teching up as well, lagging behind, but in a controlled, limited fashion.

Rheinland, kusari, bretonia would have their own public domains which are independent (they might not even know the liberty domain!).

Liberty could seriously outclass or being somewhere completely else than the other domains, but that doesnt matter, as the sheme should only manifest the combined technological progress of connected communities/civilisations/races.

A single domain would be like planet earth, you may not like or cooperate with everyone, but in the grand sheme of things the same technologies are available to everyone.

That there may is a civilisation on kepler-442b thats more advanced than us doesnt matter, as we dont know them and dont communicate with them.
davdav wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote: your "lack of discovery" assumes that theres information already available somewhere and if its available to someone you know and can contact.
I'm a little bit desapointed by that. Is there a topic about discovery in LT? I can't find it.
With speed of light limit disabled for every points of the game, the player could buy an universe map at the first station and there is nothing to discover, it's like google maps.

Sorry for the HS.
Did you just fail the turing test? O.o

Who said that the data is available somewhere?
Not every nook and cranny will be filled with stations and ships, there will be vast swathes of systems which are unknown to everyone.

So you cannot just buy a map at the first station, as there is no map of the whole universe.

Nobody has such a map, as there are systems where nobody was before, nobody knew of.

Also: the game universe is infinite, not even the game itself has a complete map at the start
Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#236
Cornflakes_91 wrote: Who said that the data is available somewhere?
Because it's logical : from a solar system, if you can easily go to another place, so this place should be well known by people of the initial solar sytem living here for several hundreds of years... except if you have a tech that you are the only one to own in the current solar system.
To make universe map : ask your neigbors their map. And after ask to the neigbors of your neigbors. And go on. Without communication limitation, it's so easy that you have no reason to not have a map of humanly accessible places. But of course it's not fun in a game : so lets imagine than nobody from the current solar system (billions of people) took the 5 min to explore local areas.
Post

Re: Squaring the "Vertical Progression" Circle (maybe)

#237
davdav wrote:
Cornflakes_91 wrote: Who said that the data is available somewhere?
Because it's logical : from a solar system, if you can easily go to another place, so this place should be well known by people of the initial solar sytem living here for several hundreds of years... except if you have a tech that you are the only one to own in the current solar system.
To make universe map : ask your neigbors their map. And after ask to the neigbors of your neigbors. And go on. Without communication limitation, it's so easy that you have no reason to not have a map of humanly accessible places. But of course it's not fun in a game : so lets imagine than nobody from the current solar system (billions of people) took the 5 min to explore local areas.

and where does lightspeed limit prevent a universal map from being generated?

it may not be up to date, but surely there will be every system ever visited by anyone on that map.

if you remove exploration from your ground state, of yourse you wont have any of it when you get to play :roll:

Online Now

Users browsing this forum: Cornflakes_91 and 1 guest

cron