If we scan for frequencies, they could be influenced by the relative speed between the object and our ship (Doppler effect).
Of course, this would only make sense (scientifically) if the waves are traveling with very low speeds (not speed of light).
advantage: maybe you can deduce the speed of objects (because of redshift/blueshift)
disadvantage: scanner gets more difficult to read, because peaks aren't always at the same place
(another idea: scanner also detects chemical compounds, and shows 3d molecules - atoms are "nodes")
Post
Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:55 pm
#2
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
I imagine signals travelling at the speed of light or faster.
Ships, on the other hand, would probably travel no faster than a few thousand metres per second.
Assuming a signal travelling at c from a ship moving directly to or away from the detector at 2000 ms^-1, this would lead to a change in apparent frequency of +/-0.000667%. Not much, really.
That being said, I have been thinking along the lines of intra-system FTL travel in order to allow for realistically-sized systems while still maintaining what I presume to be a Freelancer feel to travel. A ship moving at 10c directly to or away from the detector while emitting signals that travel at c would lead to a +/-90.9% change in apparent frequency - something that could tip you off that a ship was travelling at high speed if you knew that the received signals should be at a much lower frequency. So Doppler shift mechanics could very well have a useful application in the game if ships can travel at high speeds.
Ships, on the other hand, would probably travel no faster than a few thousand metres per second.
Assuming a signal travelling at c from a ship moving directly to or away from the detector at 2000 ms^-1, this would lead to a change in apparent frequency of +/-0.000667%. Not much, really.
That being said, I have been thinking along the lines of intra-system FTL travel in order to allow for realistically-sized systems while still maintaining what I presume to be a Freelancer feel to travel. A ship moving at 10c directly to or away from the detector while emitting signals that travel at c would lead to a +/-90.9% change in apparent frequency - something that could tip you off that a ship was travelling at high speed if you knew that the received signals should be at a much lower frequency. So Doppler shift mechanics could very well have a useful application in the game if ships can travel at high speeds.
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Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:43 pm
#3
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
The other thing to keep in mind, is that assuming we have objects moving at a high enough speed that they can either be red-shifted or blue-shifted there really is no point in trying to deduce it yourself. A computer should be able to take that into consideration and automatically detect it's speed and heading.
...but this isn't real life and there is the rule of cool.
Okay, true. But if we really want to see the compressed or stretched signal, it should be cosmetic only. Trying to figure out if a signal is actually dopplar shifted or just a different signal (that's so close and shorter in length) that it would either come off as tedious or a once-in-a-lifetime similarity. I'm all for letting it be cosmetic so we can see the 'raw data', but practicality tells me if we had to infer it ourselves, it'd just be tedious.
...but this isn't real life and there is the rule of cool.
Okay, true. But if we really want to see the compressed or stretched signal, it should be cosmetic only. Trying to figure out if a signal is actually dopplar shifted or just a different signal (that's so close and shorter in length) that it would either come off as tedious or a once-in-a-lifetime similarity. I'm all for letting it be cosmetic so we can see the 'raw data', but practicality tells me if we had to infer it ourselves, it'd just be tedious.
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:46 pm
#4
The way I see it, CPU is an allocatable resource and the more CPU you allocate to sensors, the more "intelligent" they become and the more information they will automatically work out and feed to you without you having to manually deduce those things yourself.
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
By the same logic, why does the computer not just tell you when you're detecting signals coming from asteroids, ships, etc. as opposed to the current implementation where you look at the signals and deduce those things yourself?DWMagus wrote:The other thing to keep in mind, is that assuming we have objects moving at a high enough speed that they can either be red-shifted or blue-shifted there really is no point in trying to deduce it yourself. A computer should be able to take that into consideration and automatically detect it's speed and heading.
The way I see it, CPU is an allocatable resource and the more CPU you allocate to sensors, the more "intelligent" they become and the more information they will automatically work out and feed to you without you having to manually deduce those things yourself.
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Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:51 pm
#5
Just trying to give each idea a fair shot.
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
No, you're exactly right. The reality is that I can't exactly see a reason to have the dopplar effect for signals, but I wanted to entertain the idea anyways just to see if any thoughts spawned from it.ThymineC wrote:By the same logic, why does the computer not just tell you when you're detecting signals coming from asteroids, ships, etc. as opposed to the current implementation where you look at the signals and deduce those things yourself?
Just trying to give each idea a fair shot.
Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
Post
Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:47 pm
#6
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
Using doppler shift to determine velocity is actually used in RADAR systems. Since the change in frequency is so small for non-relativistic velocities, humans can't notice it. Computers can though.
What this means for gameplay is that sensor GUIs stay the same. There's just a legitimate reason for giving the player information on objects' velocities.
What this means for gameplay is that sensor GUIs stay the same. There's just a legitimate reason for giving the player information on objects' velocities.
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Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:35 am
#7
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
This is a very cool idea but i would personally prefer not to know the velocity of the thing I am scanning. Makes hunting for thing more fun.
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Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:14 am
#8
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
So you're suggesting the game hide easily available information from you?Neandertal wrote:This is a very cool idea but i would personally prefer not to know the velocity of the thing I am scanning. Makes hunting for thing more fun.
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Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:01 am
#9
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
@ThymineC: I think if a ship is flying toward you with a speed of 10c, it can reach you sooner then any EM-signal (velocity only 1c, blueshift doesn't matter)
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Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:06 am
#10
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
That's true, although it could be going the other way or at an oblique angle to you. It may even fly straight past you without you realising until all of a sudden you're picking up the signals it emitted in its wake.Apollo13 wrote:@ThymineC: I think if a ship is flying toward you with a speed of 10c, it can reach you sooner then any EM-signal (velocity only 1c, blueshift doesn't matter)
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Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:17 am
#11
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
@ThymineC: I miss a comment like "Doppler-effect can't work with the H-drive, since there are no real velocities" ...
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Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:25 am
#12
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
Why wouldn't the Doppler effect apply even with the H-drive? Even if you're only "apparently" moving, you will still be continuously changing your location in space as you emit radiation.Apollo13 wrote:@ThymineC: I miss a comment like "Doppler-effect can't work with the H-drive, since there are no real velocities" ...
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Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:37 am
#13
... But if the teleports are very fast (much shorter than the wavelength (edit: period) of the signal), I guess you're right.
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
I thought of it in this way: you "jump/teleport" to a new location, then detect/emit a signal (for some time, during this time, you are stationary, so there is no Doppler-effect), then teleport againThymineC wrote:Spoiler: SHOW
... But if the teleports are very fast (much shorter than the wavelength (edit: period) of the signal), I guess you're right.
Last edited by Apollo13 on Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:44 am
#14
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
No, actually you make a good point. The jump period (~1 ns - 1 us) would be much longer than the period of most electromagnetic radiation.Apollo13 wrote:I thought of it in this way: you "jump/teleport" to a new location, then detect a signal (for some time, during this time, you are stationary, so there is no Doppler-effect), then teleport againThymineC wrote:Spoiler: SHOW
... But if the teleports are very fast (much shorter than the wavelength of the signal), I guess you're right.
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Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:18 am
#15
Re: Sensors influenced by Doppler effect
In fact, no, the Doppler effect should come into play. The 1 microsecond figure I gave for the H-drive jump period was for regular motion (~1000-2000 ms^-1). At 10c, you'd be be travelling at 3,000,000,000 ms^-1, a 1,500,000-3,000,000-fold increase. Assuming jump distance remained constant and therefore jump period varied in inverse proportion to apparent speed, you'd get a jump period of around 3.3*10^-13 seconds, or a frequency of 3*10^12 Hz (3 THz), which is the low-frequency edge of the far-infrared light band. You'd probably get some Doppler shifting occurring for EM radiation at significantly lower frequencies than this (e.g. radio waves), but not for higher frequencies.