## Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#226
So your idea would be not so much making an entire asteroid dynamic, as having small chunks of rock fly around during mining operations?

Also, how is asteroids crumbling as they travel somehow more plausible than h-drive asteroids? At least H-roids (heh) have handwavium.
(I'm not suggesting H-roids, just suggesting that the current mass dependent drag isn't changed)

Thankyou for pointing out the error in my maths
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#227
Sasha wrote:So your idea would be not so much making an entire asteroid dynamic, as having small chunks of rock fly around during mining operations?
Well the asteroid you're mining would necessarily become a dynamic body, which would break apart into smaller chunks, but other asteroids would still remain static while you mine them.
Sasha wrote:Also, how is asteroids crumbling as they travel somehow more plausible than h-drive asteroids? At least H-roids (heh) have handwavium.
I don't know. I'd really rather prefer with just sticking to having other asteroids remain static and making asteroids break into numerous small chunks after they deplete. In that case, these small chunks would move with a constant low velocity (in such directions that momentum is conserved). If at some point they hit an asteroid, the asteroid doesn't change in any way but the chunk splits off into smaller chunks in a similar manner. If chunks get too small, they are garbage collected. If chunks wander too far, they are garbage collected when the player isn't around.
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#228
ThymineC wrote:
Sasha wrote:So your idea would be not so much making an entire asteroid dynamic, as having small chunks of rock fly around during mining operations?
Well the asteroid you're mining would necessarily become a dynamic body, which would break apart into smaller chunks, but other asteroids would still remain static while you mine them.
I'll try a scenario. Say you start mining a 50 meter wide asteroid. Your mining operations break that asteroid in half
You then decide to follow that half to see where it ends up. Turns out, it collides with a 20m wide asteroid. The 20m wide asteroid stays perfectly still since your mining operations haven't made it dynamic. However, the 25 meter half asteroid rebounds away.
That doesn't make sense.
ThymineC wrote:
Sasha wrote:Also, how is asteroids crumbling as they travel somehow more plausible than h-drive asteroids? At least H-roids (heh) have handwavium.
I don't know. I'd really rather prefer with just sticking to having other asteroids remain static and making asteroids break into numerous small chunks after they deplete. In that case, these small chunks would move with a constant low velocity (in such directions that momentum is conserved). If at some point they hit an asteroid, the asteroid doesn't change in any way but the chunk splits off into smaller chunks in a similar manner. If chunks get too small, they are garbage collected. If chunks wander too far, they are garbage collected when the player isn't around.
In accordance with the scenario I gave earlier, what happens when you mine large asteroids, chunks break off and those chunks collide with smaller, static asteroids?
If you say an asteroid can't be broken into chunks larger than its neighbours, there is no point making the entire asteroid dynamic. Just generate small dynamic chunks as you mine.
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#229
Sasha wrote:
ThymineC wrote:
Sasha wrote:So your idea would be not so much making an entire asteroid dynamic, as having small chunks of rock fly around during mining operations?
Well the asteroid you're mining would necessarily become a dynamic body, which would break apart into smaller chunks, but other asteroids would still remain static while you mine them.
I'll try a scenario. Say you start mining a 50 meter wide asteroid. Your mining operations break that asteroid in half
You then decide to follow that half to see where it ends up. Turns out, it collides with a 20m wide asteroid. The 20m wide asteroid stays perfectly still since your mining operations haven't made it dynamic. However, the 25 meter half asteroid rebounds away.
That doesn't make sense.
This is a fair point, actually. In these cases, you could just have both the chunk and the small asteroid mutually annihilate each other, possibly spewing out yet smaller chunks. At some stage, hopefully early on, you will have chunks that are smaller than all nearby neighbours so the amount of dynamic asteroid chunks flying apart remains limited.
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#230
Even if they collide at a measly 5m/s?
Having static asteroids anywhere in range that dynamic ones can interact with them in any way has too many problems and special cases to consider.
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#231
Sasha wrote:Even if they collide at a measly 5m/s?
Having static asteroids anywhere in range that dynamic ones can interact with them in any way has too many problems and special cases to consider.
Assume a high initial velocity to all chunks that are created. Since velocity remains constant in a vacuum, all collisions are guaranteed to be high-velocity.

Edit: and low asteroid integrity, I guess?
Last edited by ThymineC on Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#232
Space has drag though. It's not something Josh can remove. It's not just for gameplay/feel, it's a fundamental aspect of how the game engine works.

Even assuming a high initial velocity, you can't ensure velocity will still be high when it hits another asteroid.
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#233
Sasha wrote:Space has drag though. It's not something Josh can remove. It's not just for gameplay/feel, it's a fundamental aspect of how the game engine works.

Even assuming a high initial velocity, you can't ensure velocity will still be high when it hits another asteroid.
I thought that it was the case that the flight model of each individual object is just configured to behave as if a drag force was being applied against it? If it can be guaranteed that an object will never travel faster than a certain velocity (e.g. asteroid chunks), then I'm pretty sure it should be within Josh's ability to make asteroid chunks use a flight model in which drag doesn't apply.
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#234
ThymineC wrote:
Sasha wrote:Space has drag though. It's not something Josh can remove. It's not just for gameplay/feel, it's a fundamental aspect of how the game engine works.

Even assuming a high initial velocity, you can't ensure velocity will still be high when it hits another asteroid.
I thought that it was the case that the flight model of each individual object is just configured to behave as if a drag force was being applied against it? If it can be guaranteed that an object will never travel faster than a certain velocity (e.g. asteroid chunks), then I'm pretty sure it should be within Josh's ability to make asteroid chunks use a flight model in which drag doesn't apply.
its also that the engine needs some value for drag not to go nuts, its not only speed
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#235
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
ThymineC wrote:
Sasha wrote:Space has drag though. It's not something Josh can remove. It's not just for gameplay/feel, it's a fundamental aspect of how the game engine works.

Even assuming a high initial velocity, you can't ensure velocity will still be high when it hits another asteroid.
I thought that it was the case that the flight model of each individual object is just configured to behave as if a drag force was being applied against it? If it can be guaranteed that an object will never travel faster than a certain velocity (e.g. asteroid chunks), then I'm pretty sure it should be within Josh's ability to make asteroid chunks use a flight model in which drag doesn't apply.
its also that the engine needs some value for drag not to go nuts, its not only speed
If this is the case, then you set drag = 0.01 or something, as Josh suggests here (again, the reason why he says one is needed is to ensure a non-relativistic top speed, which ordinarily wouldn't be the case without drag, but would be the case with asteroid chunks - because we can ensure an upper limit to chunk velocity when they're generated). Alternatively, you can assume an imaginary drag force is being applied to the asteroid chunks as normal and assume another imaginary force acting equally and opposite to it so that the two forces cancel out, like flying a spaceship at a constant velocity in a straight line. It should be easily possible to make an asteroid chunk fly in a straight line at a constant velocity if that's what we want.
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#236
A far safer, simpler method is to just never allow dynamic asteroids to interact with static objects.

1. Asteroids have a minimum size.
2. Asteroids can be blown apart.
3. Asteroids are generated far enough apart to prevent interaction.

3 simple rules that work for every case of asteroid interaction, so long as asteroids have drag. (ie, I do not require a physics overhaul, just leave it as-is)
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#238
Sasha wrote:simple rules that work for every case of asteroid interaction, so long as asteroids have drag. (ie, I do not require a physics overhaul, just leave it as-is)
Yeah, this was the first suggestion you made. Asteroids shouldn't drag in space. That doesn't make any sense at all.

I don't think it requires a physics overhaul. I doubt Josh has coded it so that everything necessarily drags (I think he was just talking about spaceships). If for some reason it applies to everything, all you need to do is assume an invisible counter-acting force acting equally and opposite to the drag. I'm very sure you can just make it so asteroids don't drag when they move, though.
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### Re: Mining Gameplay Ideas Refined

#239
When coding (You'll see Josh talking about it all the time) you always want the most general solution. Currently ships are the only things with mass that move in space. (I'm not saying munitions don't have mass. I am saying Josh hasn't coded mass into munitions).
So as it stands, only ships have drag in space, since drag is mass dependant.

Since you always want the most general solution in code, it is far better to say 'mass has drag' than 'ships have drag'.

Also, asteroids having drag easily and simply allows them all to appear dynamic.
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### [Suggestion] More Involved Mining

#240
I have been following the development of this game from an external perspective. I just joined the forums and tried searching for "mining" and it was too common of a word apparently so I'm posting this.

I'm sure this has been brought up in here (I hope at least) but wanted to put in my 2 cents:

First, I'm assuming there is no set deadline for getting this game released and there definitely shouldn't be. It should be released when it's done - that's all.

Now, I'm a big fan of the concept of mining in space and how it might play out in real life if we were out there and companies were running mining operations. I feel as though the following should be an inherent required workflow for mining (versus just pointing a laser at an asteroid and gravitating it automatically into your cargo bay somehow):

1. Physically landing/clamping onto an asteroid
2. Sending mining drones out to begin drilling, collecting, and bringing minerals/ores back to your cargo bay as you land
3. Protecting your drones as they do the work, dropping down when you receive notification that minerals/ores are ready for pickup
4. Landing a final time to pack up the drones when you are satisfied with your day's work
5. Go looking for the highest bidder for your goods

If implementing something like this takes longer for the game to be released, so be it. That's my opinion. I'm basing it off of how Chris Roberts thinking is... "we'll release it when it's done". However, this is your game and you will make it how you envision. I respect that and I will still be buying it when it comes out no matter what. However, it would be awesome to see such a mining mechanic or at least something more involved than pointing a laser at an asteroid.

UPDATE: My initial step 3 was involving getting out of your ship and setting up larger drills manually. I have removed that due to learning that won't be possible according to the FAQ. Thanks @ThymineC.
Last edited by ioxon on Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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