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Predefined sectors

#1
I am not sure whether Josh plans to allow us defining some properties of the universe in addition to its seed number, but here is a couple of thoughts that would be good for roleplay, if implemented.
  • It would be nice if we are able to define the general structure of some "core" sectors of the universe. For example, if you want to role-play in star-wars universe, you somehow request several sectors such as Coruscant, Tatooine, and other sectors from here to be present. Additionally, it would be nice if we can define what planets are available in those sectors and how they are connected.
  • In a similar fashion it would be nice if we can request certain factions to be present with their respective relationships.
At this point we don't yet know whether the universe is going to be entirely random, so I wonder if Josh would consider something like this or at least comment what he plans to do with universe generation.
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Re: Predefined sectors

#2
Due to copyright issues, certain things cannot be included in a for-profit game, such as planets/solar systems/factions modelled off of the works of others. It also conflicts with the concept of a wholly procedurally generated universe; you cannot have fixed structures like that when generating a universe.

Check out the Degree of Sandbox-ness thread in this forum for a list of things that are likely to be adjustable when loading a seed. Note that he's talking about adjusting algorithims - the calculations used to generate content - not loading a database of alternate textures, names, etc to replace those the engine develops.
I am 42.
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Re: Predefined sectors

#3
Kayse wrote:Due to copyright issues, certain things cannot be included in a for-profit game, such as planets/solar systems/factions modelled off of the works of others.
And how exactly copyright issues would affect a feature allowing to import a bunch of sectors from a file?
Kayse wrote: It also conflicts with the concept of a wholly procedurally generated universe; you cannot have fixed structures like that when generating a universe.
This just sounds strange to me as a programmer. When you generate something, you can always take some pre-defined values and then generate the rest. That is unless you put some artificial objective (i.e. to generate everything from a single seed and nothing else) before play-ability.
Note that he's talking about adjusting algorithims - the calculations used to generate content - not loading a database of alternate textures, names, etc to replace those the engine develops.
I saw this, but it is different.
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Re: Predefined sectors

#5
It wouldn't stop with the names. It would be expected that Tatooine is a desert world and has two satellites, a space port named Mos Eisley...
With all that custom content you'd be better off playing X3 and modeling a sector by hand.

If the syllables exist in the name database then somewhere in your universe there may be a planet called Tatooine. You just have to go looking for it. =)

Any sort of campaign in a PG universe would be for a specific seed of universe and written after the universe had been created - so that the places that the actors talk about exist to begin with.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Predefined sectors

#6
kurush wrote:
Kayse wrote:Due to copyright issues, certain things cannot be included in a for-profit game, such as planets/solar systems/factions modelled off of the works of others.
And how exactly copyright issues would affect a feature allowing to import a bunch of sectors from a file?
You can't import a bunch of sectors from a file. All content is procedurally generated. Nothing is imported to load into the game during creation of the universes.
I am 42.
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Re: Predefined sectors

#7
Gazz wrote:It wouldn't stop with the names. It would be expected that Tatooine is a desert world and has two satellites, a space port named Mos Eisley...
With all that custom content you'd be better off playing X3 and modeling a sector by hand.
I as not sure why can't we have the best of two worlds, where you have some base structure pre-defined and the rest generated. When you perform procedural generation, you still determine all these parameters from RNG. Just substitute RNG with predefined structure for some sectors and then do the same.

Purely random stuff rarely makes much sense or is logical enough for good role-play. And fixed structure of X3 gets boring really fast. Remember all those X3 scripts that add random sectors until we run out of sector space in that stupid sector matrix?
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Re: Predefined sectors

#8
Having modded this or that over the years, I couldn't care less about what's "balanced" in a single player game - because it's a completely pointless argument.

If it can be done without trashing the whole PG setup, sure, why not?

I imagine you'd have to start with some seed number to begin with.
Then you'd pick out the ID of planets / sectors / systems (whatever the structure ends up being) and overwrite their data with whatever you want from a text file.

The obvious problem? To catch all the details like where what kind of city with which kind of buildings lies, what wares are for sale at which merchant / city / station, what kind / style of ships this faction uses, how many and where and what for... that's a pretty complex file structure all by itself.
May as well ask for modding. =P
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Predefined sectors

#9
kurush wrote:I as not sure why can't we have the best of two worlds, where you have some base structure pre-defined and the rest generated. When you perform procedural generation, you still determine all these parameters from RNG. Just substitute RNG with predefined structure for some sectors and then do the same.

Purely random stuff rarely makes much sense or is logical enough for good role-play. And fixed structure of X3 gets boring really fast. Remember all those X3 scripts that add random sectors until we run out of sector space in that stupid sector matrix?
It seems that you haven't yet grasped the fundamental concept of Limit Theory. I'd suggest you watch the Kickstarter video again, and read the pitch. There is no fixed or predefined structure in Limit Theory. There are no scripts in Limit Theory.

Also, procedural generation is something else than simple random number generation. The whole point of Limit Theory is to prove that procedural generation—if done right—is sophisticated enough to create a whole universe, without getting boring quickly.

Limit Theory is nothing else than Josh Parnell's attempt to prove that you're wrong, and procedurally generated stuff does make sense and is logical enough for good role-play. That's really all that Limit Theory is about. If you don't believe in it, or don't want it, then Limit Theory is probably not your game.
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Re: Predefined sectors

#10
I can see the desire for having a set universe. I'm sure many people would love Star Trek, Star wars, bsg, and Babylon5 mods using LT's game mechanics. My hope is that LT's new game screen can have a selection box -- use a seed or import a pre-fabricated universe.
David -- Proud to be saving the world since 1984
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Re: Predefined sectors

#11
croxis wrote:I can see the desire for having a set universe. I'm sure many people would love Star Trek, Star wars, bsg, and Babylon5 mods using LT's game mechanics. My hope is that LT's new game screen can have a selection box -- use a seed or import a pre-fabricated universe.
Procedural generation, as it is being applied in LT, is not compatible with a pre-fabricated universe. At all. The whole point of Limit Theory is to be completely unique.
I am 42.
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Re: Predefined sectors

#12
Kayse wrote: Procedural generation, as it is being applied in LT, is not compatible with a pre-fabricated universe. At all. The whole point of Limit Theory is to be completely unique.
That sounds like B.S. to me. Think of ships and that nice ship designer Josh created. That means that you can define the main building blocks of your ships and the generator will finish it off and make it look "real". I am talking about the same approach to the universe itself.
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Re: Predefined sectors

#14
kurush wrote:That sounds like B.S. to me. Think of ships and that nice ship designer Josh created. That means that you can define the main building blocks of your ships and the generator will finish it off and make it look "real". I am talking about the same approach to the universe itself.
When it comes to procedural generation, usually the goal is so that you don't have to have something as specific as this. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't.

I'm guessing that right now, the engine is completely procedural when it comes to universe creation. Allowing a user to create something and having the game finish it off, in and of itself is not easy. In fact, I'm actually quite a bit surprised Josh is doing that for ships. Ships vs universe are two completely different beasts though. He would need to create a universe creator in addition to what he has in order to make what you're talking about. I'm not the creator, so I can't say whether or not that will be in there, it just sounds to me like quite a bit of work for something that may take a bit to see a return on.

I do however like the idea of some sort of 'creative' mode akin to minecraft, just because I like seeing what people come up with (the Game of Thrones maps in minecraft for example), but with all the other planned features, this one is fine by me if he doesn't put it in.
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Predefined sectors

#15
That sounds like B.S. to me. Think of ships and that nice ship designer Josh created. That means that you can define the main building blocks of your ships and the generator will finish it off and make it look "real". I am talking about the same approach to the universe itself.
I'd be a bit concerned if Josh started putting building blocks in, even if the way they were assembled was randomised, because in an infinite universe you would start to see repetition sooner or later. An example of this is Diablo, where this kind of assembly occured, it looks impressive as each section is designed rather than generated, but after a while you start to spot where the joins are and the sense of not knowing what's around the next corner is diminished.

The main reason I decided to back Josh's project was that it would be totally procedurally generated, so there's no way of knowing what comes next with a truely infinite yet diverse milieu.

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