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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#16
Commander McLane wrote:This may also be because the main feature of space is its utter emptiness, which makes its reality boring beyond any imagination.
Unfortunately this is the truth. Imagine playing a game without all the visual effects and the only sound you'll hear is the sound of micrometeorites dinging your hull. I'm not sure if it will sell well...

So yeah, bend some reality for some visual clarity...I'm all for that. And it certainly is a very welcome help in preventing a pitch-black asteroid from hitting me in the face when I'm flying around the field.
In Josh we trust.
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#17
TanC wrote:
Commander McLane wrote:This may also be because the main feature of space is its utter emptiness, which makes its reality boring beyond any imagination.
Unfortunately this is the truth. Imagine playing a game without all the visual effects and the only sound you'll hear is the sound of micrometeorites dinging your hull. I'm not sure if it will sell well...
I'm not sure its ever even been attempted.
TanC wrote:So yeah, bend some reality for some visual clarity...I'm all for that. And it certainly is a very welcome help in preventing a pitch-black asteroid from hitting me in the face when I'm flying around the field.
Does your super powerful future spaceship lack such basic amenities as a thermal imaging system?

This is what I mean. Space games have been being made exactly the same for so long people can't even imagine obvious solutions to simple problems anymore.
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#18
CutterJohn wrote:
TanC wrote:So yeah, bend some reality for some visual clarity...I'm all for that. And it certainly is a very welcome help in preventing a pitch-black asteroid from hitting me in the face when I'm flying around the field.
Does your super powerful future spaceship lack such basic amenities as a thermal imaging system?

This is what I mean. Space games have been being made exactly the same for so long people can't even imagine obvious solutions to simple problems anymore.
So, what if your spaceship has such advanced sensors (thermal imaging, radar, computer-enhanced visual light spectrum analysis, mass-detecting widgets, etc, etc) that your ship is able to combine everything into a awesomely cool rendered view of space and display it in the forward pane of your cockpit view?

There's no point adding too much complexity in the name of realism if that's not the kind of game you're playing. Just handwave the explanations and enjoy the pretty. For everything else, there's KSP. :thumbup: :wave:
- The Snark Knight

"Look upward, and share the wonders I've seen."
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#19
CutterJohn wrote:I'm not sure its ever even been attempted.
The only one that comes close in recent memory was 0x10c but that was ditched in favor of "softer" science before being ditched entirely. The problem would be how to make such a game fun for the average gamer.
CutterJohn wrote:This is what I mean. Space games have been being made exactly the same for so long people can't even imagine obvious solutions to simple problems anymore.
Either that or we accept the fact that what we're viewing isn't exactly the view we see via glass cockpit but via an external camera relayed to the pilot's mind. Sure, we can have mass spectrometers, thermal imaging and the rest but what would the average gamer say to that? Aside from it being overly colorful (or in negative colors), the average gamer would be wondering how he/she is going to interpret what he/she is seeing on-screen, thus adding another barrier to enjoyment.
In Josh we trust.
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#20
TanC wrote:
CutterJohn wrote:I'm not sure its ever even been attempted.
The only one that comes close in recent memory was 0x10c but that was ditched in favor of "softer" science before being ditched entirely. The problem would be how to make such a game fun for the average gamer.
CutterJohn wrote:This is what I mean. Space games have been being made exactly the same for so long people can't even imagine obvious solutions to simple problems anymore.
Either that or we accept the fact that what we're viewing isn't exactly the view we see via glass cockpit but via an external camera relayed to the pilot's mind. Sure, we can have mass spectrometers, thermal imaging and the rest but what would the average gamer say to that? Aside from it being overly colorful (or in negative colors), the average gamer would be wondering how he/she is going to interpret what he/she is seeing on-screen, thus adding another barrier to enjoyment.
The point of my statement was not that the choice is between unrealistic and pitch black, but rather, that its a choice between realistic and pitch black.

The idea of everything being dark is the unrealistic one.

As for what the average gamer would think... Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory is held in very high regard, despite the 'complexity' of 4 distinct vision modes. I feel this concept of 'Gamers don't react well to complexity' is becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#21
CutterJohn wrote:I feel this concept of 'Gamers don't react well to complexity' is becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.
I can't speak for TanC, but my point was "Complexity for the sake of realism" is a bad idea. Complexity for the sake of adding interesting gameplay and mechanics is another thing entirely.

Which is not to say that realism shouldn't be carefully considered when implementing new gameplay systems, because a dash of realism often provides a more immersive and relatable experience to the user, but I don't believe that realism should be the guiding principle used when developing most games (obviously there is a type of game where realism is rightly a high priority, I just don't believe that Limit Theory should be one of them).

Anyhow, I believe the difference lies primarily in why the design decisions were made. I feel that game developers should be striving to create interesting, engaging, and fun experiences for players, and using realism as just another tool to do that, rather than limiting themselves to what could be considered "realistic", and walling themselves away from many of the exciting possibilities the video game medium provides because of that.

:shrug:
- The Snark Knight

"Look upward, and share the wonders I've seen."
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#22
Just_Ice_au wrote: I feel that game developers should be striving to create interesting, engaging, and fun experiences for players, and using realism as just another tool to do that, rather than limiting themselves to what could be considered "realistic", and walling themselves away from many of the exciting possibilities the video game medium provides because of that.
Clearly I need to work on my writing skills for I fail to convey my thoughts as clear as the way Just_Ice_au does. :lol: But yes, my point is to incorporate realism to aid in the enjoyment of the game instead of having it as a primary focus and the game is written around that.
In Josh we trust.
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#23
TanC wrote: But yes, my point is to incorporate realism to aid in the enjoyment of the game instead of having it as a primary focus and the game is written around that.
As was mine. I wasn't advocating a hyper realistic scenario for a space game. I was just advocating that a very simple solution be applied to the problem. Space is dark? Then we can use image enhancement technologies as the reason its not presented as such, rather than saying its 'unrealistic, but for gameplay'. It doesn't have to be considered unrealistic, and frankly shouldn't be considered unrealistic.

Just_Ice_au wrote:Anyhow, I believe the difference lies primarily in why the design decisions were made. I feel that game developers should be striving to create interesting, engaging, and fun experiences for players, and using realism as just another tool to do that, rather than limiting themselves to what could be considered "realistic", and walling themselves away from many of the exciting possibilities the video game medium provides because of that.
A good argument. The problem is that, right now, space game designers are still limiting themselves. Rather than realism, however, they are limiting themselves to Star Wars. They have been more or less recreating the same game for the past 30 years in an attempt to capture that Star Wars feel. I'd love to see someone try something, anything, different.

And in regards to realism, specifically... Why is it that everyone who is a fan of space games seems to hate the idea of real space, and real technology? Its very strange. The environments many space games present would fit absolutely perfect as a submarine game, but people want it in space. People suggesting realism get a 'But its boring!' in reply.. If you find it boring, why are you a fan of space games in the first place? You'd think, somewhere out there, would be a developer who wanted to do his level best to make a plausible extrapolation of future technologies and mold it to fit a realistic setting. Every other genre has its realism fans. This one doesn't. It baffles me.

Oh well, all that is incredibly off topic.

Main point is, asteroids should be lit up because, dang it, I have a spaceship. I should be able to have some good night vision. :)
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#24
CutterJohn wrote:If you find it boring, why are you a fan of space games in the first place? You'd think, somewhere out there, would be a developer who wanted to do his level best to make a plausible extrapolation of future technologies and mold it to fit a realistic setting. Every other genre has its realism fans. This one doesn't. It baffles me.
I'm a fan of the idea of space.
Actual space is horribly boring.
There is no "I" in Tea. That would be gross.
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#25
Etsu wrote:In ArmA 2 and 3, you see lensflares in third person only, not in first person, witch it's a nice touch. I love lensflares, but I also appreciate when designers deside to be somehow "realistic".
Can I get that back if I make my char wear glasses? :P
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#26
The following expresses my personal views and nothing more.
CutterJohn wrote:
TanC wrote:And in regards to realism, specifically... Why is it that everyone who is a fan of space games seems to hate the idea of real space, and real technology?
Especially considering that it's supposed to be a "simulator". Maybe we should stop calling these games simulators when they are not. Having spaceships doesn't make the game a Space Sim.

I for one do not find the idea of ​​"real" space boring. Quite the opposite. But, what is "real"? What is "realistic"? Those are very ugly words. Everyone has a different idea about what makes something be "realistic" or not. This is also science fiction, so it's not just about reproducing "reality", but also about using our imagination to conceive other realities beyond our own.

The idea, at least for me, is that the game tries to make you feel like you are really there in a spaceship, contemplating a nebula through the windows of the cabin, with nothing else to do while your unmanned probes take samples from a nearby moon and the automated mechanisms of your ship extract ores from a nearby asteroid, while you take a coffee and hear the latest news through the intergalactic broadcasting sitting in your comfortable pilot chair.

Of course, there are levels of accuracy. But I don't think the idea is to choose between "realistic" or fun. The challenge is to decide which would be more "realistic" or appropriate and present it in a way that is enjoyable as gameplay. For example, manned spacecraft must carry food for the crew and surely accumulate waste. The latter is not nice, but sadly it is an unfortunate reality of interplanetary travel. What are the regulations in this space sector? How many fulfill them properly? Suddenly I want to play as an inspector of a mining company or even as a ordinary policeman, arresting those who do not observe the regulations. I can imagine myself driving a small police ship, smaller than a starfighter, with red and blue lights on the ceiling. :D

PS: Gran Turismo, ArmA 3 and KSP are great examples which show that many people enjoy simulation.
DWMagus wrote:Can I get that back if I make my char wear glasses? :P
I didn't try, but I did just that in a game I'm doing in CryEngine 3. :lol:
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"Playing" is not simply a pastime, it is the primordial basis of imagination and creation. - Hideo Kojima
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Re: Lighting of asteroids

#27
Gazz wrote:
CutterJohn wrote:If you find it boring, why are you a fan of space games in the first place? You'd think, somewhere out there, would be a developer who wanted to do his level best to make a plausible extrapolation of future technologies and mold it to fit a realistic setting. Every other genre has its realism fans. This one doesn't. It baffles me.
I'm a fan of the idea of space.
Actual space is horribly boring.
+1 :thumbup:
- The Snark Knight

"Look upward, and share the wonders I've seen."

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