Some thoughts about damage and repair

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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:21 am

Thats all secondary factors not the actual "repair" time, though.

im talking about the time the ship actually spends being repaired.
The time and cost you cant remove by preparing your own yards.
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby CSE » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:27 am

Cornflakes_91 wrote:Thats all secondary factors not the actual "repair" time, though.

im talking about the time the ship actually spends being repaired.
The time and cost you cant remove by preparing your own yards.

Well yes, but I am speaking about the real time you have to take into account for repairs (even not counting coming there and going back, which will quickly dominate the equation). And which is also to consider in your own yards (how many people paid to do nothing?)
This is what counts, at the end. So it is not important what the actual repair time alone is, as it is not relevant to your experience or the economics of the game.
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:39 pm

CSE wrote:This is what counts, at the end. So it is not important what the actual repair time alone is, as it is not relevant to your experience or the economics of the game.


It is very much relevant when you have your fleet repair yards trying to get your fleet up and running again, with the resources already there.
When all that matters to you is to get all the ships working again.
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby 0111narwhalz » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:46 pm

Cornflakes_91 wrote:
CSE wrote:This is what counts, at the end. So it is not important what the actual repair time alone is, as it is not relevant to your experience or the economics of the game.


It is very much relevant when you have your fleet repair yards trying to get your fleet up and running again, with the resources already there.
When all that matters to you is to get all the ships working again.

The point CSE is making is, I think, that it does not matter how long it takes to hammer out the dents. It matters how long it takes from deposition of the ship until pickup. With self-managed yards, there is less fluff, but you still don't care whether it is paperwork or engines currently being maintained; all that matters is the time you don't have your ship.
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:53 pm

0111narwhalz wrote:The point CSE is making is, I think, that it does not matter how long it takes to hammer out the dents. It matters how long it takes from deposition of the ship until pickup. With self-managed yards, there is less fluff, but you still don't care whether it is paperwork or engines currently being maintained; all that matters is the time you don't have your ship.


Because the wait time until its your turn isnt defined by how long it takes to repair the other's ship? :P
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby Silverware » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:54 pm

Cornflakes_91 wrote:the basic idea of trading speed vs cost i can agree with, but not with the magnitude of the variability.
you can maybe halve the base repair time with a fast job.
at least for the mechanics behind it.

you can do a fast and wasteful job or a slow efficient job.
or you can allocate less repair capacities to the job and it costs you less resources per time unit but with the same efficiency as with just allocating more capacities.
maybe the efficiency is directly a function of the amount of repair capacities allocated :think:
the size of the job defines an "ideal" amount of workforce to do the job, and anything above that gets diminishing returns in terms of speed and material efficiency.
(modified by some variable on the repair systems)
so doing multiple repair jobs at once over multiple ships would be more efficient material and time wise and repair yards dont just throw all their resources at jobs sequentially.
you can rush a repair job with an oversized (compared to the ship to repair) repair yard, but get lower efficiency out of it.

maybe the ideal work allocation also varies with the size of the damage in addition to the size of the ship? :think:
it theres just a dent or two in your shuttle theres not much point to throw the whole yard at it.


this all of course also applies to the NPC repair yards and their service costs are then modified by market forces, them charging you more for hogging all their capacities


Then this just falls down to, you agree with my approach, but think that the numbers are bad. Which is a balance pass thing anyway, as those numbers were ones from my arse. :ghost:
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby Scytale » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:47 am

...

The whole point of having a slider is that a player isn't constrained to the kind of gameplay s/he doesn't like. What if a player wants short repair times without ridiculous repair costs? What, too bad, just live with it? Putting in an inverse cost/time mechanic destroys the reason Flat suggested a slider in the first place.

If you really want that mechanic, put it in the game anyway (e.g. player chooses at time of repair the option they want) and let the slider scale the entire system on a meta-level.
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby Flatfingers » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:34 pm

I'm an adherent of the philosophy of Sliderism because I think games are about the player's enjoyment, not the developer's.

But I'm not a zealot about it; I see nothing wrong with providing some default settings for slider-enabled values: Easy RTS, Hardcore Strategy, Ironman Dogfighter, Freelancer 2.0, etc. This way, if you want to play the game as the developer(s) balanced it for you, you absolutely can.

But if you want to optimize the game's behaviors to your taste, including how repair should be paid for, individual sliders allow you to exercise that power and responsibility.

This seems wrong?
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby Scytale » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:27 pm

Flatfingers wrote:I'm an adherent of the philosophy of Sliderism because I think games are about the player's enjoyment, not the developer's.

But I'm not a zealot about it; I see nothing wrong with providing some default settings for slider-enabled values: Easy RTS, Hardcore Strategy, Ironman Dogfighter, Freelancer 2.0, etc. This way, if you want to play the game as the developer(s) balanced it for you, you absolutely can.

But if you want to optimize the game's behaviors to your taste, including how repair should be paid for, individual sliders allow you to exercise that power and responsibility.

This seems wrong?


No Flat, let's take this perfectly good suggestion and implement a constraining mechanic that completely misses the point of the suggestion in the first place and just ends up complicating the whole discussion. That's what this forum is good at isn't it?
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:35 pm

its not 100% applicable, but the idea is. just found it interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nEJOkTjJqk
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby BFett » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:46 pm

Cornflakes_91 wrote:its not 100% applicable, but the idea is. just found it interesting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nEJOkTjJqk

That's not a bad talk, but the solution for the time issue really isn't clear. I agree that things (in our case ships) should have parts and can fail due to absorbing too much damage and also that there should be disadvantages for losing particular parts.

Perhaps the happy medium is: The longer the player plays the game, the more relevant repair times become. This means that pricey items have repair times which scale along with the cost of the repair. This makes fleet management and maintenance real aspects in Limit Theory. These aspects can be avoided though by buying small ships (with respectively short repair times) and keeping your fleet size relatively small.

A fleet of 20 battleships should not have the exact same repair time as a fleet of 20 fighters. Nor should the cost of repairs be the same. This assumes that the damage is different though. if damage is equal then repair time and cost should be exactly the same assuming no modules were destroyed.

1 minutes for 20 points of damage = 1 minutes for 20 points of damage (ON ONE SHIP)
Additional delays may occur between each ship in the repair queue.
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby Cornflakes_91 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:54 am

like i suggested already? :ghost:

bigger ships take longer for their percentage, small (=lone wolf sized) ships at max 5 min in extreme cases.
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Re: Some thoughts about damage and repair

Postby BFett » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:31 pm

Yep. Guess I should reread the thread again to make sure I don't hammer an idea that's already been brought up. I'm glad that we are both on the same page though.
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