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Re: Making mining fun

#46
@Neo160

At first, I like the idea of random events and loot, but then something else came to me when I was replying to one of the other threads.

Why?

Why should we make mining fun? Why should we make something that's so basic and detrimental become fun? If we do, then what sense does the player have to automate it? I know there is no such thing as progression in a sandbox game, but you do have a little bit of progression in automation. The player will want to automate and make things like mining more efficient, otherwise there's nothing stopping them from sitting in an asteroid belt 'turtling' (as it was put in the other thread) until they have everything they need to buy/build their fleet.

For whatever reason why you're mining, that alone shouldn't be why you're performing that task. You want to automate it so you can do other stuff. If you are going to turtle in a belt and build your fleet, it should act as an incentive to make it more efficient/automatic.

I think of this as the same as starting out in Minecraft. You start out and the first task you have to do? Harvest wood. I don't really care for harvesting wood, and having to come back to it now and then is a bit boring. Yes, it could be a lot more interesting with loot drops and the like, but then you start rewarding something that's meant to be boring.

Let it be boring. Those who really want to do it are still going to do it regardless of the ideas put forth.
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Making mining fun

#47
Neo160 wrote:how about making asteroids explode into many pieces, than a scanner shows whats valuable and whats not. with a configurable overview, the player can just see what mineral chunks he wants to see, or see everything, or a mix of things. he then multi-targets and tractors in these pieces.
In terms extraction method, I'd much rather we had to make an effort to analyse an asteroid just to find out if its usable, then go to the effort of establishing heavy machinery on its surface to do the extraction. It should take a lot more energy to break apart an asteroid than an ordinary ship could ever generate, so heavy industrial plant with significant running costs would be the way to go. Plus then the stage of refining whatever we dig out just to get a product we can sell or use. IMO it should take quite a bit of effort and expense, not instant riches you can pick up in moments for little effort.

As for finding rare things, I'd be perfectly happy with the occasional discovery of valuable ore/gems in small quantities. If there are rare artefacts out there, I'd rather they were part of some generated quest where I was deliberately searching, e.g. a treasure map or a contract to find ancient remains.
DWMagus wrote:Let it be boring. Those who really want to do it are still going to do it regardless of the ideas put forth.
Agreed. If you need to do it to get what you want, you will. In some ways it's Mining Tycoon, and it's not for everyone. Of course if you make enough money by other means you could employ an NPC to do it all for you, assuming they can be trusted :?

Personally I'd be quite happy to do a spot of grind-level mining, but I'm a bean-counter anyway :D
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Re: Making mining fun

#48
I dunno if you guys have seen this kickstarter, it failed by the idea is kinda cool, http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/103 ... nd-survive

You could just fire a ton of rockets into it and blow it apart and get the good stuff out of it, might add a penalty and you get less ore because you're blowing it up but that effect is cool, then have a widespread tractor beam bring the whole lot in or a bunch of drones fly around like that lander tethering it up and bringing it to you :)
The enemy of my enemy dies next.
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Re: Making mining fun

#49
Slevan wrote:I dunno if you guys have seen this kickstarter, it failed by the idea is kinda cool, http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/103 ... nd-survive

You could just fire a ton of rockets into it and blow it apart and get the good stuff out of it, might add a penalty and you get less ore because you're blowing it up but that effect is cool, then have a widespread tractor beam bring the whole lot in or a bunch of drones fly around like that lander tethering it up and bringing it to you :)
unsure if asteroid destruction will be implemented in this way, the spawning of ore shaped cargocrates with ore in them could work, then you would just need to shrink the asteroid itself.
i dunno, but i like the idea.
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Re: Making mining fun

#50
DWMagus wrote:Why?

Why should we make mining fun?
Because intentionally making something boring and tedious which doesn't need to be isn't really a good way of advertising a game? :|

As far as I'm concerned, I like shooting asteroids just like the next guy (calling Josh as my witness ;) ). If as a side effect of shooting at them I also am actually mining them, it's all the better. And that's really all I want to have to do with mining. If active mining becomes a necessity for game progress, that would be annoying enough in and of itself. The only way of sort of (but not really) counterbalancing that would be to make the act fun. It's really the least the game should do.

As you guessed already, I'm not really interested in the RTS aspect of the game, and I couldn't care less for having to go through some full-blown economy simulation. Heaven forbid that this ever becomes a necessity for LT. It distracts from what I expect and see as the primary purpose of a space sim: flying through space and going through thrilling adventures and weird escapades. :geek:
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Re: Making mining fun

#51
Commander McLane wrote:
DWMagus wrote:Why?

Why should we make mining fun?
Because intentionally making something boring and tedious which doesn't need to be isn't really a good way of advertising a game? :|
Ah, but that's a false dichotomy. Avoiding one extreme is not the same as promoting another extreme.

Avoiding trivial and facile is not the same as deliberately making something tedious and boring, especially if the intention is to make it challenging and rewarding.

I think this brings up a real dichotomy, though, that some people want the game to be fast and arcadey, while others want it to be more realistic and challenging. I admit to being one of the latter.

Admit? Proclaim! :D

I would favour mining being quite involved and hard work, as I would find that more rewarding and more likely to hold my attention for longer. If it were a simple shoot & scoop I'd likely get bored fairly quickly and move on to whatever else the game offers. If the whole game balance is like that, the risk is I'd move on to another game entirely. I'm one of those people who persevered with X to build up a bit of an empire, and that held my attention far more than some straight shooter games that had less depth. But, everyone has their own taste.
If active mining becomes a necessity for game progress, that would be annoying enough in and of itself. The only way of sort of (but not really) counterbalancing that would be to make the act fun. It's really the least the game should do.
Maybe it comes down to the difference between "fun" and "rewarding". I feel the latter is more important for holding long-term attention than short-term gratification. In any case I certainly don't propose that mining woud be essential to progress in the game - it would be just one way to make money, amongst many.
As you guessed already, I'm not really interested in the RTS aspect of the game, and I couldn't care less for having to go through some full-blown economy simulation. Heaven forbid that this ever becomes a necessity for LT. It distracts from what I expect and see as the primary purpose of a space sim: flying through space and going through thrilling adventures and weird escapades. :geek:
At the same stage if an economy is modelled in the background, it gives more depth to the game in terms of dynamic changes, e.g. corporations may try to muscle in on a rich area, it's worth blockading systems, it's worth trading and hauling goods, it's worth looking out for where the best prices are, it's worth exploring to find new sources of what's in demand, whether commodities or rare artefacts, etc. It will produce more changes and opportunities for the things you do like to do. It adds appreciably to a changing universe. Just like in real life most people aren't interested in economics, but still want the benefits, opportunities and interesting outlets that a wealthy, dynamic society provides. They want the economic dynamo to happen in the background.

If the game has more depth, it presents more variety of activities, and we'd all benefit from that.
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Re: Making mining fun

#52
Commander McLane wrote:
DWMagus wrote:Why?

Why should we make mining fun?
Because intentionally making something boring and tedious which doesn't need to be isn't really a good way of advertising a game? :|
I'm not advocating making it intentionally boring. Trust me, after starting my zillionth seed after playing countless universes and wanting to try different things, the last thing I want to do is a boring task.

The point you brought up regarding shooting asteroids and them breaking apart with some minerals to collect, that I can understand and that sounds like a decent balance between tedious/monotony. It engages the player without overselling the point. That was actually a perfect example.

I have to admit, that I'm probably going to be playing the game more from an economy simulator standpoint than any other (but I will engage in my fair share of battles) and would still like to see automation fairly early in the game to make those tasks easier. I'm not advocating that others should have to go that route and play the economy game just to get somewhere. I really don't like the idea of having to do something in an unrelated field of what my goals are.

Mining should only be involved and hard work if you plan on going the trading/economy route. If a player doesn't want to, then they should just be able to get a few resources to start manufacturing basic/crappy drones to get a few more resources which you can then trade for your upgrades.

This also brings along another point. Why are you mining? If you're doing it for economy or manufacturing, you're going to want to automate it pretty quickly. If you're doing it for the kicks, then something like getting some random spoils from a broken apart rock should be enough. Am I missing something?
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Early Spring - 1055: Well, I made it to Boatmurdered, and my initial impressions can be set forth in three words: What. The. F*ck.
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Re: Making mining fun

#53
Actually, there is a way past this that should satisfy both camps; the system is populated by large asteroids and small rocks.

You can blast apart the small rocks, with a chance of releasing scoopable ore or even gems, whereas the large asteroids require scanning and surveying to find a deposit, whereupon industrial plant must be attached for extraction. Shoot & scoop will produce a little, but the industrial process produces industrial quantities. Everyone is happy :D

This also feeds into the Resource Gathering thread (maybe worth a join?) whereby the survey discovery probability (chance/size of deposit find) can be subtly altered by the game if circumstances warrant it.

The large asteroids could be persistent, but small rocks randomly appear each time the system is entered.
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Re: Making mining fun

#54
I think that any method of gaining resources (be those varying materials or money) should be more or less equally viable and profitable to any other method. Mining, salvaging, bounty hunting, piracy, cartography(?), doing missions/favors for NPCs, trading/smuggling, trader/smuggler escort, military work, etc. You should be able to make a living in-game from any single one of these things, or a combination thereof. So while mining should be fun, it should require about the same amount work as trading (and anything else), and should net the player about the same amount of money.

And then if you want to do something more lucrative, you do the job at a higher level. Tired of smuggling boring old narcotics that only pay the middle-of-the-road price? Smuggle bioweapons or human organs instead. Sick of piddling around with low-profit copper? Mine for iridium instead.

You get the idea.
Shameless Self-Promotion 0/ magenta 0/ Forum Rules & Game FAQ
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Re: Making mining fun

#55
Grumblesaur wrote:I think that any method of gaining resources (be those varying materials or money) should be more or less equally viable and profitable to any other method. Mining, salvaging, bounty hunting, piracy, cartography(?), doing missions/favors for NPCs, trading/smuggling, trader/smuggler escort, military work, etc. You should be able to make a living in-game from any single one of these things, or a combination thereof.
I'm not convinced there should be an artificial balance to enforce equal rewards - surely some activities should be inherently more profitable than others? Also their profitability should vary widely from place to place, e.g. large ore-rich asteroid fields vs. smaller ones of low concentrations. I agree that all should have viable niches somewhere, but the local profitability will vary from place to place and probably through time as the dynamic universe evolves.
And then if you want to do something more lucrative, you do the job at a higher level. Tired of smuggling boring old narcotics that only pay the middle-of-the-road price? Smuggle bioweapons or human organs instead. Sick of piddling around with low-profit copper? Mine for iridium instead.

You get the idea.
If you mean scaleability in terms of volume, risk or difficulty, I agree with that.
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Re: Making mining fun

#56
Yes, I mean scalability in terms of risk vs. reward, sheer volume, or difficulty, but I like the idea of being able to do any of those things to earn resources.

Now the resources don't all have to be monetary. I imagine that by doing missions for people, you'll earn a lot of human(oid) resources, perhaps gaining access to private stations in distant sectors. And if you do trader escort with some people, then you'll be offered better weapons for your ship. Or something like that.

The reason I'd like to see some sort of equality between the different methods of earning money is so that not everyone just mines because it's the best thing to do. Arguably it's more realistic for bounty hunting and military work to pay more, but if everyone just takes the easy road (whatever it would be without an arbitrary balancing system), the other more difficult/less profitable ways would never be used.
Shameless Self-Promotion 0/ magenta 0/ Forum Rules & Game FAQ
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Re: Making mining fun

#57
Gazz wrote:Shoot big rocks until everything is small rocks?

Say, you run a mineral scan and get some hints on where the heavy metal veins or diamonds are.
Then you blast away all the ice and silicates until you have "extracted" the platinum vein.
It would involve the player, let him influence the outcome.

Sure, you can still just auto fire and scoop everything into the cargo bays of your Galaxy class mining ship. In doing so you probably burn most of the valuables.
Or you're flying a small Prospector class and surgically cut out the the quality stuff.

Mining would be more interesting because the player could make a difference.
this is a brilliant idea.
fraggdya's list of unreasonable demands!
1. I would like a tannoy in my ship that plays 'Ride of the Valkyries' on repeat.
2. A replica of the Icarus II ship
3. A shrubbery
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Re: Making mining fun

#58
Bear in mind that larger asteroids are basically small planets, so would have appreciable gravity holding them together. Shooting them shouldn't be able to break them apart, maybe just eject some trivial fragments at most. However, smaller ship-sized rocks should be much easier to split. This returns to the idea that larger asteroids would be mined by assembling industrial installations on them, while small rocks could be blasted and the fragments scooped up. I'd also like to see the small rocks have relative motion so they could be regarded as a navigation hazard too.
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Re: Making mining fun

#59
fraggdya wrote:
Gazz wrote:Shoot big rocks until everything is small rocks?

Say, you run a mineral scan and get some hints on where the heavy metal veins or diamonds are.
Then you blast away all the ice and silicates until you have "extracted" the platinum vein.
It would involve the player, let him influence the outcome.

Sure, you can still just auto fire and scoop everything into the cargo bays of your Galaxy class mining ship. In doing so you probably burn most of the valuables.
Or you're flying a small Prospector class and surgically cut out the the quality stuff.

Mining would be more interesting because the player could make a difference.
this is a brilliant idea.
What he said.
You cannot not communicate.
Paul Watzlawick - 1st Axiom
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Re: Making mining fun

#60
JabbleWok wrote:Bear in mind that larger asteroids are basically small planets, so would have appreciable gravity holding them together. Shooting them shouldn't be able to break them apart, maybe just eject some trivial fragments at most. However, smaller ship-sized rocks should be much easier to split. This returns to the idea that larger asteroids would be mined by assembling industrial installations on them, while small rocks could be blasted and the fragments scooped up. I'd also like to see the small rocks have relative motion so they could be regarded as a navigation hazard too.
Thats fair enough, maybe mining involves a dedicated ship/s with apparatus and/or lasers and scanners. After weighing up size, content, location etc you deploy apparatus or craft your way to the materials via mining lasers and/or mining charges/missiles.

I appreciate theres a lot of and/or in there - the point being mechanisms like these would be engaging i think

oh, edit:- you could always carve a base out of the asteroid too.

:D
fraggdya's list of unreasonable demands!
1. I would like a tannoy in my ship that plays 'Ride of the Valkyries' on repeat.
2. A replica of the Icarus II ship
3. A shrubbery

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