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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#76
Flatfingers wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:49 pm
I think I'm safe in asserting that Josh isn't at all concerned about what other space games might do. He's not competing with them. So whether they get released or not, whether a thousand space games launch before Limit Theory is released, is completely irrelevant. PR is irrelevant. Hype is irrelevant. Sales are irrelevant. Our wishes for features or beta are irrelevant. None of that drives any part of LT's development or release date.

The only thing that matters is when Josh is satisfied that Limit Theory feels fun for him to play. Then, and only then, will he release it so that we also can enjoy this game whose promise brought us here and has kept some of us here.
You make that sound like a hobby project, only to be developed for personal consumption, and maybe releasing it.
That bites with the fact that several people collaborated in it, with Adam seemingly doing that full time for a while.

If they got payed (as they should), the project has to yield financial revenues -> its then compeeting in a market with other games.
If they did that for free, then it would be totally unfair to only consider it Josh's personal pet.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#77
Flatfingers wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:49 pm
Looks like it's time again to note that we can talk about schedules and feature lists and Early Access and communication with fans all we want, and it all means precisely diddly-squat because we aren't the target audience for Limit Theory.
Except we are, he sold it to us. People gave him the money to make the game because this is what we all wanted, and he took that money to make the game that he sold us the idea on. It isn't unreasonable to expect at a minimum the features we were told would be in the game, as recorded both on the Kickstarter and on these forums by Josh himself. That in addition to the creation and adherence to a basic schedule on the status of his project. This game is four years past its initial estimated release date. Add to that the many stints of dead silence from Josh and I can't see the reason to just dismiss these very basic requests.

People are very understandably, and with good reason, dissatisfied with the level of communication that Josh continues to show the community in spite of the huge amount of patience the community has. Just because he declares he is making the game for himself first and foremost does not excuse anything else.
Flatfingers wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:49 pm
Behold once more the words of Josh Himself from Feb. 28, 2014:

JoshParnell wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:16 pm
At the end of the day I'm not concerned if people don't see the potential right now. It's still in development, these are development updates, not release trailers. I speak a bit about this for a minute or so at the end of #14. But ultimately it seems people forget that I am making this game, first and foremost, because I want to play the ultimate space sim!! Not for money, not to fulfill KS, not for any other reason than for the fact that I so desperately want that Freelancer 2 / EVE hybrid of which I always dreamed.

So that being said, I understand if people are concerned about current lack of gameplay. Lack of visible content is characteristic of a procedural methodology. But to be concerned about the gameplay that will make it to final release? Absurd! The first and perhaps hardest test that Limit Theory must pass before being released is my own....! :D

I think I'm safe in asserting that Josh isn't at all concerned about what other space games might do. He's not competing with them. So whether they get released or not, whether a thousand space games launch before Limit Theory is released, is completely irrelevant. PR is irrelevant. Hype is irrelevant. Sales are irrelevant. Our wishes for features or beta are irrelevant. None of that drives any part of LT's development or release date.

The only thing that matters is when Josh is satisfied that Limit Theory feels fun for him to play. Then, and only then, will he release it so that we also can enjoy this game whose promise brought us here and has kept some of us here.
Sure, other space games being released is irrelevant but that doesn't quantify the rest of what you said. While Josh did say he is making this game for himself and no one else... that does not make any of those other factors irrelevant. No developer who pours this much of their life into a project will say the success of the game is completely irrelevant. I'm sure even Josh himself will say he'd like it to be successful and to find an audience who loves it as much as he does, which to an extent he already has.

I think you're taking "Not for money, not to fulfill KS, not for any other reason than for the fact that I so desperately want that Freelancer 2 / EVE hybrid of which I always dreamed." far too seriously. Josh is an idealist so him saying that makes all the sense in the world. With any other developer I would be worried if they said...

'I am not making this game to fulfill the Kickstarter that provided $187,865 to make this game possible.'

Josh is passionate about making the game and he wants to play this game more than any of us and that's why he will continue regardless of any other factor. I think that's a far more reasonable extrapolation from his statement.

Whether he likes it or not the expectations of the people that paid him is relevant. Because without them, though I have no doubt he would still be making the game, he would not be in the position he is in currently. He sold them on an idea, an idea that is very clearly laid out in the Kickstarter. Sure what people may want in the game isn't what they are going to get necessarily, but the basis for this game is all on the page. And he took their money for that. Money that drives Limit Theory's development and release.
Last edited by Forsaken on Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#81
Damocles wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:15 am
Flatfingers wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:49 pm
I think I'm safe in asserting that Josh isn't at all concerned about what other space games might do. He's not competing with them. So whether they get released or not, whether a thousand space games launch before Limit Theory is released, is completely irrelevant. PR is irrelevant. Hype is irrelevant. Sales are irrelevant. Our wishes for features or beta are irrelevant. None of that drives any part of LT's development or release date.

The only thing that matters is when Josh is satisfied that Limit Theory feels fun for him to play. Then, and only then, will he release it so that we also can enjoy this game whose promise brought us here and has kept some of us here.
You make that sound like a hobby project, only to be developed for personal consumption, and maybe releasing it.
That bites with the fact that several people collaborated in it, with Adam seemingly doing that full time for a while.

If they got payed (as they should), the project has to yield financial revenues -> its then compeeting in a market with other games.
If they did that for free, then it would be totally unfair to only consider it Josh's personal pet.
Sadly, I think both of you expressed above exactly the duality that has plagued this project for a long time. LT is obviously a commercial indie game, already sold to more than 5 thousand people. Hence, the ideas that competing for an audience for the game, PR or sales do not matter is pure nonsense. However, Josh never became capable of properly treating its development process (or the community) with the proper degree of professionalism one would expect and this community rightfully demands.

The fact that at this point and after so long and so much, he has never been capable of maintaining some minimal professional standards of communication (e.g. to abide for the communication rules he himself created) should have been already a clear indication that things on this front will simply never change. The fact that Josh has never been capable of giving a minimum road-map of the development process should also already have been a clear indication that there is still a lot of amateurish trial and error in the process. The facts that Josh still can't show gameplay progress almost 4 years after last videolog, 3 after he came back from his dark times (there is no technical challenge in the world that justifies 3 years) and that one of the last dev logs was rightfully bashed for carrying yet another iteration of Josh-building-gamedev-tools-not-a-game, should also have been clear indications that nobody should be holding their breaths for LT being released any time soon.

Hence, LT is not going to compete with X4 Interlude. LT competes with Josh. If LT wins, then eventually it will later compete with whatever games are set to be launched arbitrarily many years from now. Which is fine: being an amateurish project, it should never be expected to win any such competition. If LT succeeds enough to compensate Josh financially a bit and to give him a reasonable career start, I will be already glad for him and for LT.

(Before anyone asks: at this point, I still come here from time to time to read eventual technical insights that Josh has to share (I am a professional programmer as well) and for some of the great things I see this community contributing with. Personally, I very much look forward to seeing Josh's future projects, whenever he can start fresh from the pressure of LT and (hopefully) focusing on gamedev tools, which I really think he is extremely talented at)
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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#82
There are a few things I want to point out. Firstly: Josh promised he would release the game on different platforms such as Steam; this contributed to the pool of Kickstarter money he received. I don't think anyone can deny that. He thus has an obligation to fulfill that to the best of his abilities, unless he is a con artist (which he is not: he has always intended to release it to us, and that much is very clear). I normally agree with you, Flatfingers (well, apart from politics :D), but the idea of "the community doesn't matter to Josh" simply doesn't make sense. The community has always mattered to Josh - otherwise, why would he have made the dev videos? Why would he have hired me as community manager? Why would he have been making these devlogs in the first place? Sales matter to him as well. He intends to go back to school after Limit Theory comes out, according to what he's said. In order for that to happen, he needs to earn something from LT's release. Something else that matters to him is continuing his career, and if he doesn't release LT to good acclaim, how can he expect anyone to want to hire him? I've talked to him enough to be certain that he knows and understands all this very well.

No, the idea that Limit Theory is being developed solely for himself is quite silly, in my opinion, and I'd say it's a result of trying to read "too far" between the lines, to the point that it's essentially being taken out of context. The intent behind what Josh said was to reassure people that everything would be okay and things would naturally improve as time went on. He wanted to let people understand that he wanted the game just as much as we did - that he wasn't doing it purely for money, and he wanted it to be a good game. That should be the takeaway from his words, not that he doesn't care about us. He clearly does, in his own way.

The thing is, Josh is very, very bad at PR. He merely "got lucky" with trying to be a showman early on, as it turned out people liked when he was a showman. This was actually a bad thing overall, unfortunately, because it was very much non-sustainable, and because it caused more problems in the long run - showing again that Josh just doesn't always "get" PR. Another thing that shows it plainly is that he wants to give us big, flashy updates, when all people really need is "I'm still working, here's what I'm working on this week, catch you guys later!" We're working on that, though.


To address a few other random points:
- People are absolutely within their rights to be dissatisfied with the current level of communication. I am too! If I had more info on what was going on and any ability to share it, I'd be making updates myself to help everyone stay up-to-date.

- There are plenty of successful games that spent three or more years overcoming technical problems. The first that comes to mind is Team Fortress II. There are others as well. Usually it results from engine changes - which is pretty much what Josh has been dealing with as well. I'd say it's expected, and quite far from being a problem that's unique to amateur programmers.

- Limit Theory does not need to "compete" with other space games. I don't know about you guys, but I have a whole library of games to play - dozens at least - and I've played and enjoyed almost all of them. He doesn't have to "outdo" anyone else for his game to be successful. There's plenty of room for more. Most people play more than one game in their lifetimes. :)
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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#83
I wrote my previous comment fully aware that it's a view multiple folks don't agree with. I stand by what I said.

But do please note what I actually said. ;)

I never said, "Josh doesn't care about the LT community." I think he does. What I said is that I don't think the community's concerns drive either the features or schedule that Josh considers appropriate for the game he's creating. Nor do external things like what other space game developers do. Josh had a vision for the game he wants to play, and he's working -- quietly -- toward realizing that vision.

And the reason I point out this view, which I think is consistent with things that Josh has actually said -- that's why I went to the trouble of quoting him -- is because I feel bad when fellow fans try to push Josh to do something based on a faulty assumption. It makes them unhappy, and it may make Josh unhappy, and I hate to see either of those things happening. In fact, I feel so bad about it that I actually inject myself into this thread, and dispute people's beliefs directly, neither of which is something I normally do.

I don't think pushing on Josh accomplishes anything good for anyone. And I've explained why.

Now, as for the "Josh owes us a game!" let's consider that word "sold." Does backing a project on Kickstarter constitute a "sale" of a game in a legal sense?

IANAL, but I'd bet the answer, if it were put to a test in any U.S. jurisdiction, would be "no." Backing a project on KS is a speculative investment. It is a tangible show of support. You might get something from that demonstration of support. You might not. If you don't, you have no reason to kick because it was a speculative investment.

That is very different from an argument that a KS project that promises some reward should deliver that reward. I not only agree with that, I've made that argument myself.

But "should" != "must."

So the notion that KS backers of LT have any sort of legal basis for demanding that Josh deliver unto them some tangible product RIGHT NOW is without merit. He hasn't "sold" us anything. We (I'm a backer) do, I think, have an ethical leg to stand on that Josh should be responsive to our interests to some reasonable extent... but I think that's in the realm of features of LT once it's delivered, not in its delivery date.

It's complicated. I had the chance to meet Josh a couple years ago. He's a truly nice guy. I'd let him crash at my house if he wanted to. I want LT to be released not just because I think it's going to be an extraordinarily great game, but because I like Josh and I want him personally to succeed, and to go on to even more awesome things.

But I also think he gets too caught up in the pursuit of architectural perfection, and doesn't fully appreciate the value of regular communication with the people who went out of their way to support him.

And yet I have to acknowledge the reality there's nothing I, or any of the rest of us here, can do about that.

So I conclude that the most logical response is to be supportive, to minimize my expectations, to contribute something productively when possible, and to enjoy what communication there is when it happens.

How is it appropriate or practical to expect/demand more than that?
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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#84
Flatfingers wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:53 pm
I wrote my previous comment fully aware that it's a view multiple folks don't agree with. I stand by what I said.

But do please note what I actually said. ;)
I'm not working against you, Flatfingers. :) I was referring to:
Flatfingers wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:49 pm
Looks like it's time again to note that we can talk about schedules and feature lists and Early Access and communication with fans all we want, and it all means precisely diddly-squat because we aren't the target audience for Limit Theory.
(Emphasis mine.)

As I interpreted it, that means "Josh doesn't care about our opinions." I could be wrong, and if I was, thank you for taking the time to straighten that out. I was trying to get across a different idea: "Josh cares about our opinions". Our opinions factor into his vision, too. I've made suggestions that he's taken, and Cornflakes has as well, and Hyperion, and a number of other people - many of us have contributed to his current vision of LT in a multitude of ways. That's a far cry from "communication with fans means diddly squat".

Flatfingers wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:53 pm
And the reason I point out this view, which I think is consistent with things that Josh has actually said -- that's why I went to the trouble of quoting him -- is because I feel bad when fellow fans try to push Josh to do something based on a faulty assumption. It makes them unhappy, and it may make Josh unhappy, and I hate to see either of those things happening. In fact, I feel so bad about it that I actually inject myself into this thread, and dispute people's beliefs directly, neither of which is something I normally do.

I don't think pushing on Josh accomplishes anything good for anyone. And I've explained why.
I agree with this. I don't think pushing on Josh is good for anyone either. It's bad for Josh, and by extension, bad for us. Pushing on me to nudge Josh probably accomplishes more. :D
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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#85
Honestly, I don't see why people still get mad about this. Josh's bad communication is just a fact of life at this point- the sun rises every day, the tides go in and out, and Josh misses communication deadlines. Is this not the way the world is supposed to work? Is this not the natural order of things?

(In all seriousness, yeah, it's annoying, but I've come to expect it at this point and can't really muster much outrage about it anymore)
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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#86
cuisinart8 wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:29 pm
Honestly, I don't see why people still get mad about this.
At least for me, it’s not mad. It’s worried.

The thing is: when somebody has a history of being dependable and independant, you don’t worry if you have no news during some time. You trust he will be doing fine as usual.
When somebody has a history of having issues, or locking himself into isolation, then a stop in communication is worrisome. Josh has somewhat this history. And without concrete knowledge (I hope he has people that don’t actively work but are there to support and discuss), he has also « lost » his all team within few months, so is suddenly all alone again with all the problems and pression - would be a challenge for anybody.

I am not worried for my investment - as I said a lot: i consider myself more than paid back by the devlogs and this community, no game kept my interest so long! I am worries for the person Josh - he MUST put this to an end to build the rest of his life (still suggesting returning to university to get his degree).
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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#87
cuisinart8 wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:29 pm
(In all seriousness, yeah, it's annoying, but I've come to expect it at this point and can't really muster much outrage about it anymore)
Over the years, it's become clearer to me that Josh simply has no idea what he's doing, and if LT is ever released, it'll be through luck and will be a pale imitation of what he sold us on Kickstarter.

I'm sure you all know my opinion of KS; it's not an investment because you don't get any kind of return or shareholding or anything, but what you do get instead is a product. That, and the way KS has evolved into essentially a pre-order storefront, means to me that Josh owes us the game, having taken our money. The problem that I see, is that either he's not taking this professionally and actually making a plan to deliver (instead, assuming that if he tackles all the upcoming decisions like whether his UI should be in immediate mode, that the game will magically spring into being), or he doesn't know how to do that and isn't actually capable of making an actual game, as opposed to a collection of bits of code that should give him some insight into various computing problems.

But the worst part of all of it, for me personally, is that I don't really care any more. I've given away my pledge, I doubt I'd buy LT if it ever came out, and I've moved on. This community is, in my mind, a separate entity from LT, and Victor is still my hero, which is the only reason I'm still here at all. But I don't play video games nearly as much as I used to - I have never actually switched my Xbox One S on and played a game on it, after setting it up, and I've only played half-way through one game on the PSVR on my PS4 Pro and not at all on the main console - and I have no real interest in LT or Josh's lack of ability or professionalism any more.

The only reason for posting this, BTW, is cos I feel like it's a line under my posts and presence here...

P.S. Incidentally, I thought it was clear that Josh's statement about building LT for himself was made in the context of providing a reason as to why he'll never quit, which was a concern of many people at the time. It doesn't mean anything other than he won't quit because this is his dream.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#88
Actually, it may be wise to quit at some point. It is just a game at the end of the day and there is a life to live.
But let's hope he is just having some problems with the game economy and can either solve them or work around them soon(ish). Once this happy place is reached, the communication should get better again.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, August 17, 2018

#89
kostuek wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:29 am
Actually, it may be wise to quit at some point. It is just a game at the end of the day and there is a life to live.
But let's hope he is just having some problems with the game economy and can either solve them or work around them soon(ish). Once this happy place is reached, the communication should get better again.
You know, thats also my thought.
Josh showed (already all the way back at the dev-video times) to have a handle on the graphics, content generation, engine and the core space-combat part.
But the one thing that is still just concepts is the actual living ai-driven world (and economy).
I think thats the biggest nut to crack. Not some optimization on speeding up Lua interpreters, gui drawing, mesh generation or collision detection.
Last edited by Damocles on Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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