I'm a bit late on replying here.
Jstorm wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 6:25 pm
Awesome Work. Truly.
The flow economy is going to be like nothing else we've seen in a game.
The ability for first-person dogfighting or RTS control will be truly fascinating.
However, and I may be mistaken, but for the year I have been following the development of this amazing game I have not come across a discussion about the macro side of gameplay.
And since Josh is starting work on factions I believe it might be time to discuss such things. Macro gameplay is a very, very critical part of this game concept. The flow economy and the dynamic ability for the A.I. to develop means that the environment the team is developing will be ripe for player intervention.
Wow, what a first post.
Welcome to the forum! Very glad you're posting!
Let me see if I can try to answer a few questions.
First off, there has been a little discussion of macro mechanics here and there, but not overmuch. Most of the "macro" has been in terms of job management. Some of the things you seem to suggest (AI combat macro management) haven't ever come up at all, I think - at least, that I personally know of.
Jstorm wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 6:25 pm
When or if the player chooses to create a faction/corp/etc will there be an AI similar to what runs all the other factions created for the player? I know that some sort of AI will have to be involved in order to run things. But I'm curious as to how much of the tasks it will run.
In my mind I think the AI will have to accomplish the same tasks as any of the other Factions, however, it will have to do so with player guidance. Which are where my questions come from. How much will the AI do? Will the player be able to dictate what it does? Give it direction? Decide on how aggressive it is or how passive?
As I understand it, when you create a new faction, you're required to take care of it in the same way the AI would - you have to figure out what to do, give orders, make alliances, plan where to build stations, etc. At some point it might be advantageous to give parts of it to the AI, as you've mentioned, but I'm not sure we really got far enough to think about that yet. If we want to be able to handle an infinitely-sized military, there are certainly things we want to take care of - for instance, you don't want to have to constantly purchase ships for your growing empire. Perhaps you should be able to set up "worker AIs" that you can funnel a set percentage of your income into, for them to try to handle themselves - and then you can have them send new ships places at their own discretion, unless you want to build a massive fleet or something similar.
For instance, you simply set a setting: Funnel 15% of income into AI #3
and this AI is tied to a set of star systems, and can purchase or reassign anything within them. This would massively reduce player-side micromanagement, I think, although if you really want to keep your empire at its best, micromanaging might always be the best option... there isn't much way around that.
It's important to note, though, that ships have their own AI. Every ship you build can be told to either follow you, or do its own thing. You can set "missions" such as "deposit X ores at Station Y" but they decide whether they take those missions. The AI cannot "force" the player to take an action, and likewise, except for perhaps fleet combat, I don't think the player can (or has to) "force" the AI to take actions. So, for a large part, your ships
should manage themselves, removing that level of micromanagement.
Jstorm wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 6:25 pm
How will a management AI decide to expand and where to put things? Will the player have to assign it to place every single station or tell it to guard an asteroid field or can it, if the player allows it, to use whatever mechanic the other AI's use to determine where to put things? Or can it be a mixture of both?
Lastly Industry. Say the management AI places a factory. Can it automatically assign traders or transports to go to the warehouses to pick up the materials necessary or go to the market and buy the materials then transport it back to the factory? Or will the player have to make the trade itinerary for every...single...logistic ship (trader, Miner, Transport, etc). Can the AI decide how to distribute the products produced by the factory? Like, say the factory was made to produce weapon X for construction on Fighter Y. Will the AI be able to manage the logistics necessary to ferry the weapons from the weapons factory to the ship factory? Or will the player have to assign and coordinate every single ship, factory, and distribution channel of all factory or trade/transport systems? Will the AI be able to make the factory chains totally on its own if instructed or allowed to by the player?
This will never come up. NPCs have full control over their actions. It's not an RTS per se, although the combat can play out like one. :I think you might be able to give forced orders to the AI, but by default, they will do things completely on their own. They want to make money too, after all.
Jstorm wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 6:25 pm
My last question about the Macro mechanics is if the player wants, can they just let the AI manage literally everything of the player made faction and just play in the aftermath of telling the AI to destroy the universe at all costs?
That's an interesting question, and one I don't actually know the answer to. Maybe?
Jstorm wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 6:25 pm
How will procedural generation be controlled? Will you tell it to generate X number of systems on start? or will it actively generate the frontier as the player and NPCs explore and expand? If so can we tell it to stop generating if we feel we have reached a certain size we want?
Are Factions dynamic? Meaning can they come into existence mid-game. Like if an NPC builds enough wealth can it found a new faction. Or will the number of factions be set in the beginning and only be destroyed until one is left?
Will diplomacy be a consideration in gameplay? like when two weaker factions form an alliance to face a big faction. Will those factions be able to split if one wants the others resources after the war?
And this one is just pure curiosity, but will machine learning be moddable into the AI?
And I know that you guys may be theorizing on a lot of the Macro gameplay and not know what you are going to do just yet. I just want you to know that Macro tools and mechanics will be absolutely critical parts of gameplay. With procedural generation meaning we can play on massive scales and, with a good engine meaning large amounts of stuff; we are going to need extensive and deep Macro tools to be able to oversee it all while still having the game be playable and enjoyable.
Love reading the dev-logs by the way. It always excites me to see a new one posted.
1. Procedural generation will, as i understand it, work to start with X systems and then, as the player explores, the universe will expand as the player does. I don't think you'll be able to tell it to stop generating by default, but it should be able to be modded in.
2. Factions are dynamic, as I understand it. They can spring into existence mid-game and, in fact, are really just formed by ships gathering enough ships to be recognized. By that token, you might say every unallianced ship is its own faction too - and as they purchase more assets, their faction grows. They can leave factions or join them, too, iirc.
3. Diplomacy will absolutely be a consideration, as I understand it - but I think in the form of "reputation" and not hard-set "alliances". You can raise your reputation with other factions, or lower it. Raising it lets them trust you, lowering it makes them expect you to attack, so they may try to strike first.
4. Machine learning will be moddable into the AI.
Again, excellent first post!
NGimbal wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 1:34 pm
I think this is my first post? Been following since the very beginning
[...]
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that it might not be possible to find one "solution to everything" but maybe breaking types of investment down into categories would be alright.
A warm welcome to you! Welcome to having a post count.
I've seen you pop on every now and then, so it's nice to see you finally post!
This is personally my thought too. I don't think Josh is going to find his "42" here - his "solution to life, the universe, and everything". I think he'll have to settle with a number of systems that interact cleanly. The way he sounds like he's trying to set it up right now, it'll pepper a star system with a thousand tiny stations.
And that just won't work over the long-term at all.