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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#76
Flatfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:22 am
KingMoo wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:27 am
So much negativity for a toolset update.

+1 for tools. Correct direction to speed up modding work.

I support this update 100%

As I said, I can geek out over tools. But....

It's now mid-March 2018. Let's suppose the next time we hear from Josh is somewhere around April 15, 2018.

And let's further suppose that Josh drops an update around April 15 that consists of an effusively detailed description of additional tool development, and improvements to the C language core of LT, and a refinement of the LuaJIT structure that makes the Lua scripts run 20% faster, etc. etc.

Will that still be OK?

Suppose it's May 2018, and that update is also a description about improvements to the back-end systems of LT.

Suppose it's June.

Suppose it's July, or August, or October 2018, and each Official Update lets us in on some seriously cool enhancement to the architecture of Limit Theory but with little if any description of progress on gameplay functionality.

Still OK?

At what point, if any, is it not OK?



I want to be sure to add here that I'm not going to tolerate any criticism of my comments on this subject. I drove four hours to say hi to Josh and to spend 30 minutes telling him how much I support his efforts, followed by another four hours to drive home -- at this point, it had better be clear that I'm a fan of Josh and this project. :lol: (I mean, I didn't even drive four hours to visit the very nice lady whom I married.)

I'm here for the duration. I support Josh, and Adam and Lindsey, for as long as it takes.

And within that support, I think I'm not being unfair in asking: when will the architectural updates shift into gameplay content updates?
It's never not OK

Simply put all of the disgruntlement won't in any way make the game happen faster, no amount of forum complaints do anything constructive for the game. If we were providing Josh with some information he's not aware of, with some new bit of knowledge that he does not already possess it would be a different story. That being said I doubt he's unaware that he needs to work on the game and make progress on actual gameplay. It's likely a constant source of stress in the background of most of his days. It likely is also the reason why the updates despite repeated attempts still do not occur at regular intervals due to him expecting that his work in between those intervals is not something he can yet share and likely (rightfully so from this update) not wanting to face a slew of external negative feedback which he's already internally struggling with as well. There were a few assumptions made in what I just said but those are normal human responses to the situation Josh is facing.

In regards to the drive, I hope you did that for yourself as much as for supporting Josh, it seems strange to expect that this drive somehow would avert criticism. It's nice that you were able to do it and I do hope you got something positive out of it and not just a bad feeling of having to drive 8 hours for a 30 minute conversation. That said (not saying you necessarily are doing this) having offered the support you have would no more entitle you to ask that question than anyone else on the forums regardless of level of support just like it no more entitles you to an answer than the rest of everyone else.

Apologies if this offends, it's not meant as such I've been enjoying the ride that's been Limit Theory and the community for many years, I'm just slightly dismayed at the negativity in this update thread.

Cheers
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#77
Mike wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:52 am
... no more entitles you to an answer than the rest of everyone else. ...

... I'm just slightly dismayed at the negativity in this update thread. ...
^^ this.

The apparent sense of entitlement is the thing I find concerning I guess.
This process is hard, I know it's taken a long time, it's just going to take more.
Not every step forward is "100% gameplay". And not every non-gameplay update is a step backward.

A wave of negativity won't help.

Patience is a virtue etc.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#79
Mike wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:52 am
Simply put all of the disgruntlement won't in any way make the game happen faster, no amount of forum complaints do anything constructive for the game. If we were providing Josh with some information he's not aware of, with some new bit of knowledge that he does not already possess it would be a different story. That being said I doubt he's unaware that he needs to work on the game and make progress on actual gameplay.
That's assuming that whatever way Josh is following to develop the game is the perfect and optimal one, which is pretty much exactly what people are doubting. :P
Warning: do not ask about physics unless you really want to know about physics.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#80
Mike wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:52 am
It's never not OK

Simply put all of the disgruntlement won't in any way make the game happen faster, no amount of forum complaints do anything constructive for the game.

If we were providing Josh with some information he's not aware of, with some new bit of knowledge that he does not already possess it would be a different story.

That being said I doubt he's unaware that he needs to work on the game and make progress on actual gameplay. It's likely a constant source of stress in the background of most of his days. It likely is also the reason why the updates despite repeated attempts still do not occur at regular intervals due to him expecting that his work in between those intervals is not something he can yet share and likely (rightfully so from this update) not wanting to face a slew of external negative feedback which he's already internally struggling with as well. There were a few assumptions made in what I just said but those are normal human responses to the situation Josh is facing.

In regards to the drive, I hope you did that for yourself as much as for supporting Josh, it seems strange to expect that this drive somehow would avert criticism. It's nice that you were able to do it and I do hope you got something positive out of it and not just a bad feeling of having to drive 8 hours for a 30 minute conversation. That said (not saying you necessarily are doing this) having offered the support you have would no more entitle you to ask that question than anyone else on the forums regardless of level of support just like it no more entitles you to an answer than the rest of everyone else.

Apologies if this offends, it's not meant as such I've been enjoying the ride that's been Limit Theory and the community for many years, I'm just slightly dismayed at the negativity in this update thread.

Cheers
Considering how often he has promised to give the community info and then not done so. I would say we ARE giving him information that he isnt aware of. Namely the information that there still is a community around to even notice that he has made a post.

Respect works in a funny way. When it goes both ways. It generally grows. When that doesnt happen? Things have a habit of going south quite often. And on that front. By the metrics that i use. The community has upheld their side.

Now to expand on the respect and community angle.

Here is an open question for those that find, that some in the community are being unreasonable/unfair/mean/etc in regards to the responses in the devlogs.

Do you remember the "dark days"? Do you know/remember who stepped up and made certain that most of the community was still focused and behaving in a (approaching) civil fashion? Do you know/remember who made certain that there would still be a fanbase when/if Josh ever decided to come back? (in case you (the reader) dont, you might want to send Talvieno a heartfelt thank you.)

Now, let us get the usual responses out of the way:

The devs are busy!
Good. And the media should care about this why exactly? Communication always has and always will be key in actually making certain that there is a community around when/if LT gets released. And as Josh has shown time and time again. He is not going to do it himself. (More on this at the end)
Kickstarter people support LT!
Good for them. And how many of them are (to put it very mildly) slightly irked about the multiple times that Josh has broken his promises to them?

With that done.

The reason for saying all of this and for asking the question is this:

In the internet "society" (fans/media) of today there is one metric above all others that make people remember and care. Consistency in content.
What matters is that you post regularely. Because if you dont, you will be forgotten. The "society" doesnt (at the end of the day) care that you think it is hard (yes, that is not fair. But that is how the "society" works).
It only cares about the content that you deliver.
And as things are right now. Josh and colleagues NEED to pull their collective heads out of the sand and listen to what the community is trying to tell them.

And here is where we (fans) might differ in viewpoint. But i doubt we differ in what we want (Everyone here would like to see the game that josh envisioned back in his late 2012 kickstarter). I personally dont see anything but love/compassion from the people in this thread. Yes. There is frustration. Can you really blame people for being frustrated after the behaviour of Josh and team(yes, they are later additions, this doesnt magically make them exclusive to this)? But that frustration is not meant as anger. But it is the only way that people can show how much they care.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#81
A quick note regarding the few claims of false entitlement posts; I feel like anyone who backed this project originally on kickstarter and paid for it to be developed probably has a right to some entitlement, especially since the timeline for any kind of release or beta has long since passed. Something publicly backed like this should have public criticism and hold some accountability. The people are now the investors, not some random publishing company, and I feel like they do have a right to complain when things are missed or timelines not met. It's not like this is a game most of this community just stumbled on, is looking forward to, and being impatient about. A good percentage of these forum users paid their own money to see it come to fruition. I feel that entitle them to some things.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#82
I agree that the claims of entitlement aren't a good look for the people espousing them. If the discourse around this game devolves into the "true faithful" attacking anyone who voices a less than effusive opinion, it would be a sad turn of events for a community that has accepted dissenting opinions until now. I have no strong opinions either way on Josh's latest post, but there are clearly valid concerns that shouldn't be dismissed with allegations of entitlement.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#83
Talvieno wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:48 am
I also disagree with what Grumble said here. I've seen firsthand that the community (as it presently exists) is very interested in technical details. And for those that aren't - they simply don't have to read it if they aren't interested. :)
You misunderstand me, Tal. I am very interested in the technical details of Limit Theory and I enjoy it when we get to see screenshots of the game's source code just as much as when we see ships and asteroids. I think an editor, which is peripheral and optional to development and future modding and altogether unrelated to playing it is a bit beyond the scope of what I'm expecting to see in a dev log.

I'm sure if you go back through older updates and read my thoughts there about similar things I'll be singing a very different tune, but while I've been largely effusive previously, I'm rather running out of steam after what will be this autumn a sixth year of looking forward to Limit Theory. Sure, we've seen larger gaps in devlogs than a month before, and everyone probably knows me as the guy who pissed everyone else off asking for people to be patient and kind during Josh's long absences, but I just really wanna see the game, man. I'm stoked for mods too, but I'll probably play the game vanilla for six months after it comes out anyway.

Unlike some folks in this thread, I don't have any doubts as to the usefulness of this editor relating to the LT team's productivity (and for the modding community waiting in the wings), but I was hoping for more meat. Perhaps I shouldn't have spoken for anyone but myself, but I figured the metaphor would resonate with someone else.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#84
TROPtastic wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:28 pm
I agree that the claims of entitlement aren't a good look for the people espousing them. If the discourse around this game devolves into the "true faithful" attacking anyone who voices a less than effusive opinion, it would be a sad turn of events for a community that has accepted dissenting opinions until now. I have no strong opinions either way on Josh's latest post, but there are clearly valid concerns that shouldn't be dismissed with allegations of entitlement.

To be clear: that you or anyone else disagrees with my opinion on this doesn't in any way mean I don't want you to feel free to express your opinion (preferably in a courteous way).

Grumblesaur wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:18 pm
Unlike some folks in this thread, I don't have any doubts as to the usefulness of this editor relating to the LT team's productivity (and for the modding community waiting in the wings), but I was hoping for more meat.

Precisely.

I didn't enjoy not being as enthusiastic as Josh about the architectural activity described in this last update. I want to be able to encourage him!

But I should also be free to be honest, right? My honest reaction was, "What? No progress to report on how much LTSL gameplay functionality has been implemented in LuaJIT so far? That's... unexpected. And disappointing."

As long as I can express something like that constructively -- which I tried to do by describing what a satisfying progress report would look like to me -- I hope it's OK for me to do so.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#85
Hi all, time for another lurker’s opinion :-)

While I understand the immediate response and fear over this being another “rabbit hole”, I think it’s important to point out some key things Josh actually said in his post:
The harder I pushed to write the game in a modular format, and the more I tried to nail down that modular format, the more I came to realize a devastating (at the time) truth: seeing the big picture and being able to build the big picture from small, incremental changes are two goals that are fundamentally at odds with one another
A modular format isn’t just about modding, though it obviously helps. Modularity is both a help and a hinderence, since indirection trades ease of extensibility by requiring a more thourough understanding of the big picture architecture of everything.
Note that I'm doing this for me more than anything, because I need a workflow like this to keep a handle on the beastly featureset of LT. It has overwhelmed me once before; but not this time -- this time I have all the power in the world to keep it simple and manageable
I read this as practical Josh hitting a wall, and realizing that it must be solved or risk another eventual Dark Days once things grow too big, in gameplay land. Realizing that the shear scope of code required a more accessible way of diving into it, understanding it, and editing it, is definitely good, if it is hindering productivity… Which Josh said it was.
At the end of those two weeks, I had something that worked, something that enabled me to see the big picture all at once, while being able to translate my changes behind-the-scenes into the tiny, incremental changes necessary for good modularity. Those two weeks changed the whole ballgame.
Bold words Parnell, bold words... :squirrel: I can’t see this statement as anything but a good thing, for Josh. Obviously, there is room to be concerned, but first and foremost, Josh needs to find his way to the productivity that works for him and the team.
Two weeks using ImGui left me feeling that I had an infinitely-more-powerful workflow that would make the road to release so much more enjoyable, shorter, and paved with less frustration.
I was initially leary about designing a custom editor / IDE for LT, but I don’t think this was Josh hyperbole... I do believe Josh has well and truly learned his lesson in this area. And as others mentioned, from the screens he shared, the editor actually does look pretty darn useful!

Also, I think it may have slipped by everyone that actual core code was being put into place, via the Josh’s list near the end, some highlights include:
* A finished mod format that's functional, granular, and generally awesome :thumbup:
* Core is built the same as any other mod, it just doesn't depend on anything!)
* A 'Core' mod representing Vanilla LT that is already well-underway
And finally, Josh said what his exact focus would be going forward...
I anticipate the next few weeks being focused on continued development of 'Core.ltm.lua,' getting all those lovely entities and components fleshed out, and continuing to leverage the editor at every opportunity to make life easier and development more enjoyable.
We’ve been asking him to work on the core game and gameplay... and I think he’s on the same page as us.

My only criticism of this devlog was the time spent showing it to us in that level of detail... I appreciate and like the detail, but don’t want Josh spending time devlogging code ‘examples’ for us, I’d rather him just coding Core for real... so Josh, don’t stray too far from your real code when explaining things for us here!

... and thanks for the shineys!
Post

Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#86
Ateerix wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:57 pm
A quick note regarding the few claims of false entitlement posts; I feel like anyone who backed this project originally on kickstarter and paid for it to be developed probably has a right to some entitlement, especially since the timeline for any kind of release or beta has long since passed. Something publicly backed like this should have public criticism and hold some accountability. The people are now the investors, not some random publishing company, and I feel like they do have a right to complain when things are missed or timelines not met. It's not like this is a game most of this community just stumbled on, is looking forward to, and being impatient about. A good percentage of these forum users paid their own money to see it come to fruition. I feel that entitle them to some things.
Just to quickly clarify my entitlement comment was solely based on the comment made in regards to the 8 hour trip, while it does apply to a general sense of entitlement as well I fully agree that the people that supported the game financially are entitled to some things. That being said even those were clearly defined in the kickstarter and unless I'm completely mistaken I don't know that some exact deadline was missed please correct me if I'm wrong.
Naed wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:58 am
Considering how often he has promised to give the community info and then not done so. I would say we ARE giving him information that he isnt aware of. Namely the information that there still is a community around to even notice that he has made a post.
If he didn't believe there was a community I doubt there'd be any posts at all. I'm not in any way able to see how he'd somehow forget we're all here, people go as far as to drive 4 hours both ways to make sure he's aware of said community :p
Naed wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:58 am
Respect works in a funny way. When it goes both ways. It generally grows. When that doesnt happen? Things have a habit of going south quite often. And on that front. By the metrics that i use. The community has upheld their side.
Just because from a community perspective we may not be receiving everything we want does not indicate a lack of respect. If anything from how Josh formulates his updates I would say he has a great deal of respect for the community on this forum. I believe it is that respect that creates a lot of the pressure for updates to be complete and offer something of substance. Josh is human and imperfect and until recently was a 1 man show for this entire thing which had a huge physical and psychological impact on his life. A lot of people would have given up after going through something like the dark days and yet he's still at it. If anything that should show that he has some respect or at least a good enough character to not abandon a community that has done it's best to be understanding through all of it so I would say it does very much go both ways.
Naed wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:58 am
In the internet "society" (fans/media) of today there is one metric above all others that make people remember and care. Consistency in content.
What matters is that you post regularely. Because if you dont, you will be forgotten. The "society" doesnt (at the end of the day) care that you think it is hard (yes, that is not fair. But that is how the "society" works).
It only cares about the content that you deliver.
And as things are right now. Josh and colleagues NEED to pull their collective heads out of the sand and listen to what the community is trying to tell them.
I'd say this isn't your standard internet "society" or these boards would have died a while back. Also this isn't a youtube channel it's a project to develop a videogame which I would say does not operate on quite those same dynamics.
Naed wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:58 am
And here is where we (fans) might differ in viewpoint. But i doubt we differ in what we want (Everyone here would like to see the game that josh envisioned back in his late 2012 kickstarter). I personally dont see anything but love/compassion from the people in this thread. Yes. There is frustration. Can you really blame people for being frustrated after the behaviour of Josh and team(yes, they are later additions, this doesnt magically make them exclusive to this)? But that frustration is not meant as anger. But it is the only way that people can show how much they care.
Not necessarily blaming and yes as you say there is a lot of people that care which is awesome. The entire point of my posts was to hopefully put some perspectives out there that could explain and maybe alleviate some of that frustration and replace it with understanding.

Cheers
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#87
Debated posting this because I know I'll get jumped on, but here goes. Whilst I'm glad that the programmers amongst you find this stuff exciting, I personally don't care if LTabc is better then LTxyz mk2, or if mongoose based coding tools will revolutionise modding.

The core experience for the majority will be the game. For the love of all things spacey work on gameplay, please. I backed a game, not a set of tools I'll never use.

By all means write technical essays on the ins and outs of this stuff after the game is finished.

/Exasperated

EDIT: I'm just frustrated that I can see Josh is clearly excited writing this, a handful of people are excited reading it, and outwardly to the layman (me), we're no closer to the game.
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