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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#16
I have to concur,
Time spent on / saved by a tool is important,
But we already know there will be many modders from the start
Also.. So much more fun when adding content does not feel like a puzzle I bet

Looks awesome and I wanna know how Jonah managed to get around the limitations of imgui,
And it looks phenomenal too... Wait I already said so

Anyway.. I am sure we are now headed for vanilla content production / completion in record time..

Anybody could write mods with that.. even with very few experience in lua, so cool :squirrel:

Ok, I think that's all of my in ordered thoughts on the matter and I will shut up
IRC "In Josh we trust"
Post

Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#17
Re: "Tools are good"

I dont think anybody is disagreeing with that.

But Josh has run into [cool new thing that will make content production billion times faster] a couple of times now.
Any every single time he ran into / imagined a new problem that again kept him from actually building the game and made him go to the next thing thats supposedly accelerates development but only starts the circle anew.

Of course we've grown wary of the next cool thing.
Post

Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#18
erf wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:52 am
I do understand some of the harsh feedback, but i don't agree. A lot of games needs tooling to produce content more productively and a game of this scope definitely does. There have been a few iterations on the code base, but i have no doubt that the c / Lua codebase will not change further, and the Editor only builds on this solution. There is alot of gameplay left to implement, but i belive this type of tooling will make the process much faster - also making the game moddable in two weeks of work, seems like a huge win. Look forward to see rapid gameplay development in the coming weeks, months. Great work guys and girl :-)

Please go and read the old posts that Josh have done. You will see more or less exact copies of your post in those threads. And here we are now.
Achati wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:24 am
I have to concur,
Time spent on / saved by a tool is important,
But we already know there will be many modders from the start
Also.. So much more fun when adding content does not feel like a puzzle I bet

Looks awesome and I wanna know how Jonah managed to get around the limitations of imgui,
And it looks phenomenal too... Wait I already said so

Anyway.. I am sure we are now headed for vanilla content production / completion in record time..

Anybody could write mods with that.. even with very few experience in lua, so cool :squirrel:

Ok, I think that's all of my in ordered thoughts on the matter and I will shut up
Just like i said above to erf. Go and read the old posts. You will find more or less exact copies of your post in those threads. And here we are now :/

Re: Dev log post: Josh? Are you even there anymore? Can you even hear the community? Do you understand how much the community is hurting everytime they watch you go for another spin on the "just one more tool" ride? Because they know, oh do they ever know, that you dont have the stomach for that ride. Sadly, the community does not seem to be able to convince you that taking a break from that ride is in your own best interest.

Yes, the community wants a game. But i (choose to) believe that the community wants you to be happy first. And right now, you are setting yourself up for a situation where you wont be happy. Please dont do this to yourself (again).

Please listen to the community.

Best of luck Josh. Sadly, right now, you will need it.
Post

Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#19
I mean, to be fair, this isn't all that different from Skyrim or Source Engine or what have you having their own development kits, and I'm not displeased to see that LT has a friendly modding interface, but I think I could've waited until release to see that we have one.

I wouldn't call this a total sidetracking, since I'm sure Lindsey and Adam could make good use of this too, but this is kind of a letdown after nearly a month without an update. Internal development should stay internal; whether LT is built with vim, LTEditor, Notepad++, or a carefully-wielded electron emitter pointed directly at a RAM chip is beyond the scope of the community's interests. Hungry, slavering barbecue guests probably aren't as interested in the technical advancement of the host's grill as much they are in the meat sizzling on its grate.

We can wait to divulge culinary techniques and secrets until after the meal.
Shameless Self-Promotion 0/ magenta 0/ Forum Rules & Game FAQ
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#20
JoshParnell wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:55 pm
Note that I'm doing this for me more than anything, because I need a workflow like this to keep a handle on the beastly featureset of LT. It has overwhelmed me once before; but not this time -- this time I have all the power in the world to keep it simple and manageable
A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.

In magenta we trust
Post

Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#22
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:16 am
Re: "Tools are good"

I dont think anybody is disagreeing with that.

But Josh has run into [cool new thing that will make content production billion times faster] a couple of times now.
Any every single time he ran into / imagined a new problem that again kept him from actually building the game and made him go to the next thing thats supposedly accelerates development but only starts the circle anew.

Of course we've grown wary of the next cool thing.
I don't know if I agree with this. If things work well under the hood, the rest can flow from that. Basics first. I think that is a lesson Josh has learned from encountering feature bloat and a codebase that is too large to remember in the past. Think of this, say Josh never finished LT, but he did at some point release his engine and his developer tools, I imagine there would be no limit to the amount of games that could be created. Once you're happy with your tools and your engine, content should really be the last step.

There's a large suggestion subforum here, way too much for a three man team to ever implement, even if they were all good ideas, but releasing the tools and having an engine that is easy to manipulate will allow people with limited modding skill to implement their own suggestions, and perhaps even teach them the skills necessary to one day build their own vision.

I also think the time and effort spent on creating an engine that can handle a lot of stress (by so magnificently reducing it) will future-proof the game, giving it a long lifecycle in which it can remain relevant even when more powerful computers arrive. Think about MInecraft and what a giant clusterfuck the engine is. Minecraft is struggling to stay up to speed because it is spaghetticode and a completely wrong engine for what it is trying to attempt. Minecraft doesn't scale well. Despite this a vibrant modding community exists. Now imagine having LT Engine. and LT Devtools. Limit Theory is a game that I believe, because of the (sometimes obsessive) diligence in getting the foundation right will blow the minecraft and elder scrolls modding communities out of the water.

Because when someone wants to build something, when they look for tools, they ask "Can it do this thing I want? Is it easy to use?"
And when these people find LT, I imagine those answers will be more likely to be yes than when compared to other games currently out there.
Post

Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#23
How much time is left on the budget sand clock??? And even more how much time is needed for implementing and polishing all of the rest of game play feature.... Do you have any idea of how to make both those lines end at the same point....

Wonderful tool. I hope it will help to get "something" enjoyable out no matter how far away from the original pitch :D.
Post

Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#24
JGM wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:20 pm
Large post
Hi JGM, Like you, I've had concerns. I don't really have those any more, save one.
I think that a lot has happened in Josh's life that will have helped him build character and to do things better now that he did years ago.
I only really started considering myself an adult around the age Josh is today, and I've suffered from similar problems in my life.
I've had two Burn-outs, I've dealt with depression on and off in my life, and faced many of the same problems getting stuck in things.

I also know that my life turned around as I started finding out about my own limits. Something I think Josh too has had to struggle with. An example of Josh's growth is evidenced in the hiring of employees, who help drive the process forward and are in the room with Josh. A social circle away from complete isolation. I remember how hard it was for someone who wanted to prove to the world he could do it all on his own, who wanted to create only his vision, now he's learned to compromise and is happier for it. He now has a routine and exercise, showing he takes care of his health. And while I suspect (but have no evidence for) that Josh's sleep cycle could use improvement, I also can note that there ARE regular updates, unlike in the dark days. and real progress is being made. Josh moved to an office, takes time off to live outside eternal crunch, and he tries to take care of his health. And while I believe it's important that he keeps paying attention not to fall back into old patterns, I also believe that we're not helping like this.

I get the feeling not everyone understands the significance of the work that's been done. I think it would be foolish to criticise it now, of all times, because I see that the talent (born from hard work!) that Josh exhibits is paying dividends.
We have an engine that can handle tremendous stress, and a developers tool that promises to be easy to learn, easy to use, easy to iterate on, and easier to debug, than any tool I have EVER seen before.

Current times don't remind me of the dark days.
But they reminded me a little bit of the days leading up to it, when Josh wasn't managing his time properly and wasn't sleeping at regular times.

I don't think it's any of our business, to be honest and I believe it will increase Josh's anxiety to make these updates. And I regret have had the impulse before to give advise to Josh as if I truly knew him, which I don't. But I think he is quite capable of seeing red flags, to ask for help if needed from the people he has around him, and of introspection. I also expect the people around him are responsible friends and colleagues.
They would have warned him, and he them, if anything was amiss.

So in closing, my arguments: Josh is taking care of himself, Josh has people who around who help him take care, Josh has shown clear, and significant progress, at regular intervals, and he's keeping us informed. I think I'll give him credit, instead.

And to Josh: I apologize on behalf of myself for my part for getting into this. I have low impulse control.
Post

Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#30
JFSOCC wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:23 pm
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:16 am
Re: "Tools are good"

I dont think anybody is disagreeing with that.

But Josh has run into [cool new thing that will make content production billion times faster] a couple of times now.
Any every single time he ran into / imagined a new problem that again kept him from actually building the game and made him go to the next thing thats supposedly accelerates development but only starts the circle anew.

Of course we've grown wary of the next cool thing.
I don't know if I agree with this. If things work well under the hood, the rest can flow from that. Basics first. I think that is a lesson Josh has learned from encountering feature bloat and a codebase that is too large to remember in the past. Think of this, say Josh never finished LT, but he did at some point release his engine and his developer tools, I imagine there would be no limit to the amount of games that could be created. Once you're happy with your tools and your engine, content should really be the last step.

There's a large suggestion subforum here, way too much for a three man team to ever implement, even if they were all good ideas, but releasing the tools and having an engine that is easy to manipulate will allow people with limited modding skill to implement their own suggestions, and perhaps even teach them the skills necessary to one day build their own vision.

I also think the time and effort spent on creating an engine that can handle a lot of stress (by so magnificently reducing it) will future-proof the game, giving it a long lifecycle in which it can remain relevant even when more powerful computers arrive. Think about MInecraft and what a giant clusterfuck the engine is. Minecraft is struggling to stay up to speed because it is spaghetticode and a completely wrong engine for what it is trying to attempt. Minecraft doesn't scale well. Despite this a vibrant modding community exists. Now imagine having LT Engine. and LT Devtools. Limit Theory is a game that I believe, because of the (sometimes obsessive) diligence in getting the foundation right will blow the minecraft and elder scrolls modding communities out of the water.

Because when someone wants to build something, when they look for tools, they ask "Can it do this thing I want? Is it easy to use?"
And when these people find LT, I imagine those answers will be more likely to be yes than when compared to other games currently out there.
+1 This so much this, I'm looking forward to all of the amazing things that can come of getting the basics right. I think were it someone other than Josh they may have caved to the pressure and just gone the spaghetti code route to have some alpha product sold as a complete game. I fully endorse the constant optimization and tooling that has been going on, yes it's going to take a while for a team of 1 or 3 to come out with an amazing product but that's what this is shaping up to be and I'm very excited to just be along for the trip to get there!

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