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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#211
Essentially this just comes down to whether you think Josh will behave like "early" Josh or "late" Josh once the game comes out.

My belief is that he'll revert to the Josh that routinely engaged with the community, wrote daily devlogs, released LTP and produced regular update videos - all the things that built the community in the first place. I think that because releasing the game will lift such a massive psychological weight from his shoulders, and generate such a wave of positive engagement from the community, that the crippling anxiety that has resulted in his self-imposed isolation will just melt away. (Of course, I'm assuming that the game delivers on the KS promises and is half-decent, which I expect it to be or he wouldn't have released it.)

You clearly think that he'll remain as "late" Josh, who finds doing what's necessary to rebuild the community very difficult, even once the game is released. I agree that it will be harder if Josh isn't front and centre during and immediately after release, but it's still not obviously clear to me that it'll be terminal. After all, the game will be out by then, and the community will probably swell enough to be self-sustaining, especially if the game is as moddable as promised.

In any event, I don't see any need for all the doom and gloom, and assertions that Josh has forever damaged his image/brand/whatever. Yes, missing deadlines isn't a good look, but he's hardly the first game developer to do that, and it's not like we don't know why. And whilst there is truth in the view that "everything you do is PR", I can't see that sternly pushing that angle is going to yield the result that we surely all want - the return of "early" Josh. More likely is that updates will become vaguer, and arrive without warning, since no deadlines or promises of any kind will be issued or made. All communications will become more circumspect, and our interactions will be with the corporate entity of Procedural Reality, and not the open young lad with boundless enthusiasm and obvious talent that brought us - and kept the few of us - here.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#212
Distant wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:36 am
CSE wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:50 pm
Naed wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:10 am
And another related question for you: What hapepns the day that Talvieno bleeds out from holding it all (the community) together with his lifeblood? Who is going to step up? Heck, who would want to?
Perish the thought!
But I agree that Talv make more to maintain the community/forum than the developpers or the game!

If and when a game is released it may change; until then, let’s hope Josh sees Talv value and find a way to keep him around!
I'll absolutely agree that Talv is fantastic! But being a community manager is stressful. Talv, you're taking vacations right? Like, really, you need to f'off out of here and put your feet up for a few days/weeks :D
I take vacations to visit with my girlfriend from time to time, if that counts - which I think it does. It's once every three-to-four months on average. I usually spend 3-5 days with her. I'm all right, though. I seem to be managing (pun!) pretty well. :)
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#213
mcsven wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:51 pm
Essentially this just comes down to whether you think Josh will behave like "early" Josh or "late" Josh once the game comes out.

My belief is that he'll revert to the Josh that routinely engaged with the community, wrote daily devlogs, released LTP and produced regular update videos - all the things that built the community in the first place. I think that because releasing the game will lift such a massive psychological weight from his shoulders, and generate such a wave of positive engagement from the community, that the crippling anxiety that has resulted in his self-imposed isolation will just melt away. (Of course, I'm assuming that the game delivers on the KS promises and is half-decent, which I expect it to be or he wouldn't have released it.)

You clearly think that he'll remain as "late" Josh, who finds doing what's necessary to rebuild the community very difficult, even once the game is released. I agree that it will be harder if Josh isn't front and centre during and immediately after release, but it's still not obviously clear to me that it'll be terminal. After all, the game will be out by then, and the community will probably swell enough to be self-sustaining, especially if the game is as moddable as promised.
Simple answer is no.

Longer answer is: I am talking about "now". You seem to have read what i said as if i am making predictions on what will happen after release. I am not talking about that at all. What happens after release has close to no value right now. Because as things are right now (based on the actual information that has been released publically, and not based on dreams/wishes). Release is so very far away.
mcsven wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:51 pm
In any event, I don't see any need for all the doom and gloom, and assertions that Josh has forever damaged his image/brand/whatever. Yes, missing deadlines isn't a good look, but he's hardly the first game developer to do that, and it's not like we don't know why. And whilst there is truth in the view that "everything you do is PR", I can't see that sternly pushing that angle is going to yield the result that we surely all want - the return of "early" Josh. More likely is that updates will become vaguer, and arrive without warning, since no deadlines or promises of any kind will be issued or made. All communications will become more circumspect, and our interactions will be with the corporate entity of Procedural Reality, and not the open young lad with boundless enthusiasm and obvious talent that brought us - and kept the few of us - here.
Question: What happended the last time that the community got "angry" enough at him? Suddenly he had a team that actually seemed (at least for a while) to get things moving again.

Question: what happended the last time no-one kicked up a significant enough fuss? We had a year of no communication from him.

Also, the return of early josh is not the result that the community actually wants. It might think it does. But early josh is hopelessly blue-eyed about schedules and actual challenges in what he is trying to do.

What the community wants, is for Josh to actually start doing what he has been saying for years that he was going to do "soon". Make the game that he put forth a kickstarter campaign for.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#214
JoshParnell wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:49 pm
:lol:
S | Squirrel
:monkey:
(This is a good idea for a spam thread in the E & A section...'submit an option')
E | Echo
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YAY PYTHON \o/

In Josh We Trust
-=326.3827=-
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#215
My entry into this conversation was prompted by this statement of yours:
Naed wrote:In reality (as in, the current situation that the devs have dug out for themselves, broken promise after broken promise). That just isnt enough. The only viable (long term) solution is to come forth with a plan that they then stick to. (that oft wished for consistency) And even then. Their reputation will be marked by their current behaviour for a LONG time.
What is the timeframe you're referencing when you say a "LONG time"? My presumption was that you mean... a LONG time, including past release. If that's not true - if your definition of a LONG time is simply the period between now and release - then actually we're pretty much in agreement. I also believe that rebuilding the community without having a game will require a long period of constant and regular communication. I also think that is totally unlikely to happen. But I also think the unlikeliness of this happening is irrelevant, because release of the game will instantly erase all existing communication issues.

Ironically, your last two paragraphs make this point beautifully:
Naed wrote:Also, the return of early josh is not the result that the community actually wants. It might think it does. But early josh is hopelessly blue-eyed about schedules and actual challenges in what he is trying to do.

What the community wants, is for Josh to actually start doing what he has been saying for years that he was going to do "soon". Make the game that he put forth a kickstarter campaign for.
Exactly: it doesn't matter what Josh does until the game is released because all we really want is to play it! If Josh literally didn't say another word for six months and then dropped the game on Steam... would anyone care? I find it difficult to believe that they would, or, if someone did, everyone else would wonder "U WOT M8?!".

Incidentally, I think these "Question" style contributions convey a particularly uncharitable reading of Josh's experiences over the last five or so years. If you put yourself in his shoes, and think back over what we know about how the development of LT has impacted him, are you surprised by his reticence to engage with the community? Yes, he's got promises to deliver to the KS backers, but that doesn't mean we have to be vaguely hostile about his difficulties completing what is, after all, hardly a trivial task.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#216
I think that what Nead (and several others) mean is the following - and it is stated in order to be helpful ("fatherly" - Josh could almost be my son), not to critisize:
  • Josh has interrupted his studies, has therefore no diploma. He did it to make Limit Theory.
  • Therefore, if he looks for a job, or if he looks for an investor for a next project, his "value" will be based not on academic title, nor on previous work reference (being young and not yet a track record in other companies), but will be based on his achievements so far - mostly Limit Theory.
  • This means that he will need to present in-depth the project Limit Theory:
    • This goes beyond the end-result, which we assume will be excellent, but "only" gives information about his talent as programmer and possibly as game designer.
    • Depending on which job/project he wants to do, potential recuiters/investors will look at "soft skills", like project management, team management, stakeholder management and so on.
  • And this is the risk: based on what they will see, they may agree to hire Josh as a programmer - but probably hesitate to hire him for higher functions such as a project manager or to invest in his next project; he may be "forced" to just be an "implementer" but not a "driver".

In view of this, and because we think his tenacity and vision should allow him to shape the next projects he works on, and not just be the "implementer" of somebody else's vision, I think it would be very helpful to begin creating a track record of effective project management and stakeholder management. Perhaps he does the former (and don't show it to the forums), but certainly not the latter (I would have to know, being both a forum member and a kickstarter backer).
This wold show that while he did mistakes (as a young debutant), he learned and finally was able to manage and multiply his chances for the immediate after Limit-Theory future. The next job, the next project.

Of course, I wish him to have so much sales of LT that he can self-finance his next project! But this would mean a real jackpot, because you cannot build a life using 5+ years with a 100k$ budget - you need more like 1M$ (finance a small team, think to fill pension funds and so on as well!)
but actually he would "grow" (in the sense of self-improvement) more if the next step is in a structured environments, IMHO
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#217
JoshParnell wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:37 pm
Hyperion wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:28 pm
Honestly, I'd really like the next update to have enough gameplay implemented for us to finally have a video to show people this "game" we've been talking about for years but have only ancient footage to show them while we wring our hands and say "it's been a complicated and troubled development, but it's really being developed, I swear!" If that takes a few more days or a few more weeks, so be it. I'll only start getting worried if April goes by without a single devlog.
I'm looking forward to that as well. I'd say that, realistically, we're probably about 1 to 1.5 months away from being able to show 'representative' video gameplay footage again. We will get back to that point, but of course, I will never again be spending 2 days out of the month making videos :roll: :oops:
So adding for Soon™ :lol: mid-late May probably means early-mid June for a vertical slice, then I'm guessing another 4-8 weeks for polish and balance and finishing up alpha and so perhaps a Late July/Early August Beta?


Psst Aug 2 is my birthday. I'd love you forever :D
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Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#219
Dwamies wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:06 am
Hyperion wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:08 pm
So adding for Soon™ :lol: mid-late May probably means early-mid June for a vertical slice, then I'm guessing another 4-8 weeks for polish and balance and finishing up alpha and so perhaps a Late July/Early August Beta?


Psst Aug 2 is my birthday. I'd love you forever :D
I got my money on Beta testing starting in December.
December of what year? Without a roadmap, and given the tendency for feature creep, I'm thinking we may be seeing a 2019 beta at March or later. Back in 2013 I would have never imagined this project lasting another 5 years. But here we are. It's sad to say it but I am skeptical as to this new engine's ability to handle all the processes which LT is promised to have. I really hope Josh's next "gameplay" dev log will be about features implementation with little to no game theory. Or at least, no game theory which is proposing new features which are outside the scope of the Kickstarter.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#220
Not sceptical for the engine but there will well never be a point where everything in the engine is done and they "only" have to pump in game play. They will go fort and back, between engine and gameplay. More sceptical that they are underestimating the ongoing polishing of the engine as well as the polishing needed when the game play is back in. Also think that there is too much game play related features that where promised but maybe not really necessary for 1.0. By now I would say 2019 Q1 we might see some sort of early alpha and no final release before end of 2020 or maybe even 2021...
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#221
Lemar wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:07 am
Not sceptical for the engine but there will well never be a point where everything in the engine is done and they "only" have to pump in game play. They will go fort and back, between engine and gameplay. More sceptical that they are underestimating the ongoing polishing of the engine as well as the polishing needed when the game play is back in. Also think that there is too much game play related features that where promised but maybe not really necessary for 1.0. By now I would say 2019 Q1 we might see some sort of early alpha and no final release before end of 2020 or maybe even 2021...
I'm sure we have a topic on it, but what features do you think could be dropped from Limit Theory for the 1.0 release?
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#223
Lemar wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:07 am
Not sceptical for the engine but there will well never be a point where everything in the engine is done and they "only" have to pump in game play. They will go fort and back, between engine and gameplay. More sceptical that they are underestimating the ongoing polishing of the engine as well as the polishing needed when the game play is back in. Also think that there is too much game play related features that where promised but maybe not really necessary for 1.0. By now I would say 2019 Q1 we might see some sort of early alpha and no final release before end of 2020 or maybe even 2021...

I'll quote myself from my August 23, 2017 post in the The "Game" in LT thread:

If I had to pick a date for the pool, it would be Q3 2018 -- basically, a year from now.

This estimate rolls up from a number of factors (none of which are intended as criticisms):

  • still working on architecture
  • holidays/vacations/life stuff
  • port LTSL content
  • change LTSL content as it's being ported to improve it
  • add additional in-system content to satisfy Kickstarter promises
  • add new (unplanned) in-system content as inspiration strikes
  • tweak individual in-system content features
  • balance all in-system content
  • add procgen for new star systems/factions
  • add whole-game features
  • whole-game rebalancing after "is this fun to play for many hours?" playtesting
  • polish, polish, polish
  • modding (incl. LuaJIT interface reference guide) documentation
  • many hours of selected "friends and family" alpha testing
  • UX tweaks based on friends & family testing feedback
  • distribution and game-updating infrastructure
  • be unwilling to release, even as beta, anything that feels less than perfect

Every single one of these, in the moment, will feel entirely justifiable and right. And many of them will be exactly that, partly because it's integral to making any computer game of a meaningful size, and partly because of the particular requirements for Limit Theory.

But each one of these, unless it's policed with serious ruthlessness, takes time. Add them all up, and Q3 2018 is optimistic.

I prefer to be optimistic, though.

I'm still optimistic... and Q3 2018 hasn't passed yet. :D
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#224
Flatfingers wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:32 pm
I'm still optimistic... and Q3 2018 hasn't passed yet. :D
Thats an insane package :D, doesn't feel like it takes their actual dev speed into consideration (calling it wishful thinking would be an understatement :D ). Just e.g. take the polishing out and it is still too much and polishing will be a huge task. They are now still on the engine side in terms of developing, so you can shift from your August review/time table and add the time since then to your final date as if they had not made any progress (which is of course not true, but not the progress they would need to meet your time table).
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#225
I don't think polishing will be too much of a mountain to climb, Josh, even non-perfectionist Pragmatic Josh seems to like polishing somewhat as he goes. This has of course led to a lot of wasted time and effort given the extensive rewrites, but also means that what they have to work with is relatively polished already.

And looking at Flat's list again vs what we've seen recently, I'd agree that a Q3 beta and Q4 release seem on the optimistic side of reasonable. I'll be much more confident when we see gameplay though, but only if we see said gameplay before the end of May
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Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
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Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can

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