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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#166
Imagining myself in Josh's shoes, I might have been disappointed that my last update seemed to spark more outrage ("where's the gameplay?!") than appreciation.

That said, here's a (mostly though perhaps not entirely serious) suggestion for how to communicate progress toward completion:

1. Take a picture/screenshot of the task board.
2. Post the picture to the forum.
3. Repeat weekly until all tasks are in the "Done" column.

Done.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#167
I strongly suspect that Josh&co have received additional funding from somewhere, perhaps a loan from family members or someone else they know in person. I simply can't see how the KS money would have lasted this long, just in paying for rent and food and basic living expenses in addition to the equipment needed for development. Or perhaps Francois was willing to defer his payment until after release. Hard to say, but harder to believe that the KS money is still funding the entirety of development. And honestly, that's fine. No one said KS had to be the sole source of funding.

I do believe that they are working hard on the game, that every day we are a little closer to the release that will eventually come. I still admire their integrity in refusing to ask for more crowdsourced money, as to be fair to the KS backers. I still believe that LT will come out and it will be amazing and revolutionary. However, I do not believe that the devs are up to the task of dealing with the community. I, like those above, want to sincerely thank Tal for single handedly keeping the community alive, given that Josh&co clearly aren't up to that task. It worries me that Talvieno has any problems getting in touch with the devs... What kind of studio keeps the Community manager in the dark? A studio that requires a real manager at the helm, and not just a visionary.

We're a very patient, very friendly, very forgiving community, those of us who have stuck around at least, whether we are active posters or quiet lurkers. We still believe in the vision, and we still believe in the dev team, and we get it that the game will be released "When it's Ready", but we're tired of broken promises. Either post a biweekly devlog like you said, or stop saying you're going to do so. Hell, I'd be happy if the devs just gave Tal permission to post what they have been doing if they can't find the time to post themselves.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#168
Forsaken wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:53 am
Hello.

[Awesome post]
Welcome, Forsaken! :wave: That was, as mentioned, an awesome post. I think everyone completely agrees with you. Josh needs to be consistent. The dev team still seems to think that everything "has" to be flashy. It really doesn't. :P I've made efforts to get Josh to limit the time he spends, with some success, but I think the strain of spending hours per log has gotten to him. I'm not entirely sure how to get him out of that "it must be flashy!" mindset. I wish I had more to say about your post, but honestly, it all comes down to a simple three-word sentence: "I agree completely."

(On another topic, I'm always a bit unsure of how to welcome someone when they've been lurking for years. You can't really say "welcome to the forums" because they've already been there for a long time. :P But "welcome" isn't quite enough, either. I'm really glad you're here, Forsaken, and hope you continue to stick around - even if you decide to go back to lurker status.)

Damocles wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:22 am
If the situation of LT development is becoming more and more financially risky (I suppose the kickstarter funds must have ran out or very low by now)
I don't actually know Josh's/Procedural Reality's financial situation. I'm not actually sure I'd be allowed to comment on it if I did, either. :D I'd have to check the NDA again. Regardless, Josh has told me previously that I shouldn't be worried about his finances... whatever that may mean. That's all I really know about it.

At any rate, I still very strongly doubt that Josh would ever take Limit Theory down the Early Access route. I could be wrong, of course, but I'm still getting that impression.

Kimny wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:14 am
1) much worse than the repeated lack of commitment to any promises is Tal saying that lately, communication has been scarce even with him. Well, first of all what is the point of having someone as great as Tal doing a job as great as hie is if you are not willing to give him consistent and regular contact access to the team? Second, why would the team suddenly diminish such contact? Makes no sense to me.

2) I find Adam's hypothesis (reported by Tal) to be particularly problematic. He said something along the lines of the team being mostly working too hard at the code. Seriously? Are we going down those bland, generic, PR routes? All gamedev teams have to code hard. I find difficult to see that consistently missing deadlines, derailing into yet another tool building and not even caring to come here to post a note as being remotely justifiable because coders are doing hard code (I'm a professional coder as well).
Heyaa, Kimny! Been a long while since I saw you post! :)

First, I know a bit more about what's happening in LT than I'm allowed to say (aforementioned NDA). I'm fairly certain that if I could talk about it, fears like "Josh must be working on UI again" and "oh god, it's metal shader 5.0 time, isn't it" would be allayed. Unfortunately, that's all I can offer right now: LT development currently seems to be (from what I can tell by watching the assembla) on track and headed in (what I personally think is) the right direction. It still doesn't solve the need for consistent communication, of course... but it's something, I guess? :P Josh really did plan on working on gameplay next, and from what I can tell, he seems to be following through on that.

Second, thank you for your support. :) I try to do right by everyone here, and it's always reassuring when I get a pat on the back.

Flatfingers wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:06 am
Imagining myself in Josh's shoes, I might have been disappointed that my last update seemed to spark more outrage ("where's the gameplay?!") than appreciation.

That said, here's a (mostly though perhaps not entirely serious) suggestion for how to communicate progress toward completion:

1. Take a picture/screenshot of the task board.
2. Post the picture to the forum.
3. Repeat weekly until all tasks are in the "Done" column.

Done.
I've tried to put some stuff together for Josh to show that would reflect progress. Some of it has made it to you guys (the Limit Theory Feature List is one example) and some of it hasn't. I'm currently still working on getting something roadmap-like together that Josh would consider "presentable". I think part of the problem is that for a lot of it, Josh has the code completed, but it's in the wrong language (C++ instead of Lua) and he therefore can't actually call it "implemented" yet. I really think people would understand that, though. The important thing to show is progress. As long as updates to the roadmap come frequently, progress can be shown, and you could even have a progress bar ticking down the remaining "percentage estimate" if you wanted. Perhaps this estimate wouldn't be truly "accurate" -- some features are harder to implement than others -- but it would nevertheless provide a good sense of "LT WILL be completed" that devlogs, by themselves, can't quite convey.

I'm working on it, though. I'll come up with something he'll be okay with. :P I just need to put it through a few more iterations.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#170
Talvieno wrote: Josh needs to be consistent.
I think we're past expecting this to ever happen. We expect him to be excellent, not consistent. Since saying so in my last post, I'm more convinced that they need to give you permission to give a biweekly summary of what they're doing, and then they will be free to post their own devlogs whenever they get the time without worrying about when to post.

Perhaps you could put together some bullet points on what you've seen them do, and then run it by them on Thursday to give their approval and to make sure you don't spoil any big reveals they're planning.
cuisinart8 wrote:Dad?
Not you my child. You've never disappointed me.
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Challenging your assumptions is good for your health, good for your business, and good for your future. Stay skeptical but never undervalue the importance of a new and unfamiliar perspective.
Imagination Fertilizer
Beauty may not save the world, but it's the only thing that can
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#171
Baile nam Fonn wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:49 am
Talvieno wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:18 am
I appreciate the welcoming, as strange as it might be considering how long I have been around. Thank you. :)

I'm glad that the post was so well received. I just wish it didn't feel like every time this issue comes up the solutions brought to us are fleeting. Over the years there have been many impatient and some out right over the line posts around this issue, and while they aren't productive, or kind in some cases, I understand the sentiment. I believe we have been, most of us anyway, saint like in the patience that we have shown Josh. The entire time we've asked for one thing above all others - communicate consistently, efficiently, and effectively. Yet here we are.

I've wanted this game since the first time I learned about it. My very own single-player EVE without the subscriptions and a much better UI. Perfect. I will wait however long as it takes for this to happen. But I can't go to my friends and tell them the project received $187,865 in funding on Kickstarter, is years past the initial estimated release date, and the developers communication has been a long standing issue. "But I can explain!" - Just doesn't cut it. It's unfortunate.
Hyperion wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:53 pm
Talvieno wrote: Josh needs to be consistent.
I think we're past expecting this to ever happen. We expect him to be excellent, not consistent. Since saying so in my last post, I'm more convinced that they need to give you permission to give a biweekly summary of what they're doing, and then they will be free to post their own devlogs whenever they get the time without worrying about when to post.

Perhaps you could put together some bullet points on what you've seen them do, and then run it by them on Thursday to give their approval and to make sure you don't spoil any big reveals they're planning.
Hyperion is right. As far as I am concerned I am past the point in believing Josh can follow through with this consistency. To elaborate on what I said before - I believe in him, his ability and, his passion for the project... but, as much as I hate to say it, I can't believe what he says when it comes to managing this project and this community.

As far as Tal communicating with the dev team to be the go between... well I had hoped that was the intent on putting you on the team from the start, Tal. You're a prime resource for not just community management but communicating with the community as well. A resource that is under utilized. If they want to write these grand Dev logs then that's great. But they can also have you make snippets of progress or status updates (team member is sick and can't write log, team is crunching for upcoming expo, team member is helping the local community, etc) and pin it right to the top of the forum so there's no confusion.

Why that wasn't done from the start doesn't make much sense to me. Especially considering Josh has recognized in the past that he has a problem communicating with us. Well the best option is to delegate. And if he wants to get involved with the community in some free span of time he has instead of writing these massive logs, which are neat don't get me wrong, he can spend that time interacting with the community that supports him, answer questions, or just chit chatting a bit on the forums. Maybe he does on IRC, I wouldn't know, but I think the community would like that a lot more than whats been going on. Lindsey and Adam have been pretty great about it up until about December when things got hectic.

I hope things get structured better because I would really like to see this project succeed. Even if it's only for the selfish reason that I would like to play it. Very much. :ghost:
Last edited by Forsaken on Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#174
He used to come on IRC a lot more, but it's a bit difficult for him to just "drop in" these days because he always gets instantly peppered with questions and people trying to show him things. I think that, and the fact that it completely distracts him from getting anything done anywhere else, are the main reasons why he stopped visiting as much. There's also the problem that a bunch of people on the forums got really upset that he was talking on IRC once. You may have seen that.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#176
Talvieno wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:49 am
Makes sense, certainly a catch 22 situation that is best avoided. And yeah I vaguely remember seeing posts on the forums some time ago about it. I'm sure it's difficult trying to both work on the project and manage it while still trying to be approachable. I don't want anything that I have said so far to take away from how challenging it must be. We'll just have to wait and see what Josh wants to do at this point.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#178
mcsven wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:15 am
At this point, if I were Josh or the dev team, I'd just make a statement that no promises will be made on the timing of future communications. Just push the problem off until the game is ready to be released, which will change the whole tone of the conversation.
In theory, that could work.

In reality (as in, the current situation that the devs have dug out for themselves, broken promise after broken promise). That just isnt enough. The only viable (long term) solution is to come forth with a plan that they then stick to. (that oft wished for consistency) And even then. Their reputation will be marked by their current behaviour for a LONG time.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#179
Talvieno wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:18 am
I think part of the problem is that for a lot of it, Josh has the code completed, but it's in the wrong language (C++ instead of Lua) and he therefore can't actually call it "implemented" yet.
Did you consider most programmers habit to rewrite code that is that kind of old (because you became better) and have you added to that Josh mentality to rewrite especially parts that were "good enough"?
Sounds kinda naive to me to say that this part of the code is completed. Just look at the kickstarter were he was saying large parts of the engine work is done, if he not even said the engine is done and then look where we are now....
I would say there are a lot of conceptual parts that he can reuse and some minor part of the code but that's it.
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Re: [Josh] Friday, March 9, 2018

#180
The point there is that he has the mechanics worked out already. It's always, always faster to do things the second time around, if you're merely redoing what you've done before. I've done it with my own programs, so I do have some personal experience backing up what I say. I've had to port a lot of things over the years - some more than once. The first time you work something out, it's slow and painful. After that, simply porting what you've come up with before is a walk in the park by comparison. I honestly can't imagine that he'd try to rework all the game mechanics just because he's porting them. :P Scanner, perhaps, but the rest? Probably not. Just need to keep him away from the scanner then. :D

The issue with the engine is that Josh discovered, as he previously stated, that the engine he built wouldn't run LT at all without major, major feature cuts. Judging from the specific problems he was running up against, this probably would've been the removal of the economy and AI, for instance, which I - and many others - consider the core of the game. Limit Theory without the economy and AI might as well not be Limit Theory at all.
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