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Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:21 pm
by Dwamies
Lovely log Josh! Glad everything is looking up.

Where's Adam been? I really enjoyed his logs..

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:06 am
by Flatfingers
Fantastic post, Josh.

For what it's worth, I think your high level cost/benefit analysis regarding making LT moddable is sound. This isn't a sunk-cost fallacy; this is a responsible assessment of whether modding is right for this game. You concluded "yes." I believe that conclusion is the correct one, and I specifically believe it for exactly the reasons you gave.

If proceduralism is what will make a game of LT feel like a living world, moddability is what will enable LT to be a living game. It's a good fit.

One other thing:

JoshParnell wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:45 pm
All the 'bigger picture' elements that dictate when, where, and how a particular function runs are specified in the data section ... Hence, much of the need for a modder to 'worry about' the internal mechanisms used to make LT performant (you know, the ones I talk about in pretty much every devlog ever?) is alleviated. Granted, they still exist and may still be interacted with at the code level, but for the majority of gameplay functionality, doing so should be unnecessary.

Noted, and very much appreciated. This, and a reasonable data definition grammar, are about as far as you can go technically to simplify modding LT.

With that, and a basic "Modding LT" reference guide, the rest is up to us. Expecting someone who wants to mod LT to make the effort to learn Lua and the LT-specific constructs -- what they are, what they mean, and how to use them -- is entirely reasonable.

This is going to be fun. :)

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 am
by MyNameWuzTaken
LindseyReid wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:54 pm
Miklos wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:20 pm
Talvieno wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Nope. There aren't any plans for this to happen. :P
But using GitHub as mod backend would be very cool, easy to work together on mods or fork mods etc.

Or just use SpaceDock
You are correct that the Lua will be released, and the engine and C++ will be secret; however, +1 to Tal's response: only Procedural Reality developers (ie me, Adam, and Josh) will contribute to 1.0 release code.

The community can use whatever tools y'all want for collaborating on mods with each other. ^^
Why Tal?! Why couldn't you have just been WRONG about this?!

Also, I notice you did not specify that we couldn't have early access that would allow us to start creating things that WON'T be included in the 1.0 release... Loophole...

Release version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?

Though from the way it has been described, I guess there won't be a large Lua code base to play around with except for a brief period of time when all the gameplay is being generated at light speed.

All of this is futile. I don't have the honor of being a backer.

Now I feel sad

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:49 pm
by Cornflakes_91
MyNameWuzTaken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 am
Release version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?
... how would you prevent people from sharing code..?
if i can write code that runs in it, i can share that code

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:10 pm
by MyNameWuzTaken
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:49 pm
MyNameWuzTaken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 am
Release version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?
... how would you prevent people from sharing code..?
if i can write code that runs in it, i can share that code
I just meant not adding it to the initial codebase. There isn't really a way from preventing people sharing code, but you don't have to incorporate changes into the 1.0 source, or make any kind of conviences for it. Basically, people are free to mod to their hearts content, but if any changes prior to 1.0 break that mod for them or anyone else, then tough luck.

The problem isn't the sharing of the Lua code, its the dev team having to work around the contributions of non dev members when building the 1.0 version. So what I meant was people wouldn't be contributing to source, where source is 1.0 Lua code.

Edit:
Am I correct in that what we are basically getting in an engine is a Lua compiler based almost entirely on a previous C++ Compiler. The main loop will be in C++ and will be inaccessible, but we will have an API so we can mod in LUA. So its safe to release said compiler as long as we can't look in the box, and we can code, compile and run.

1.0 is this and a bunch of LUA script that works with the original vision. But for the adventurous types, you don't technically need a completed Lua script. You just need the API to play with.

Am I way wrong?

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:18 pm
by LindseyReid
Dwamies wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:21 pm
Lovely log Josh! Glad everything is looking up.

Where's Adam been? I really enjoyed his logs..
Still working hard daily in the Procedural Reality offices, just not posting regularly ^^

MyNameWuzTaken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:10 pm
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:49 pm
MyNameWuzTaken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 am
Release version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?
... how would you prevent people from sharing code..?
if i can write code that runs in it, i can share that code
I just meant not adding it to the initial codebase. There isn't really a way from preventing people sharing code, but you don't have to incorporate changes into the 1.0 source, or make any kind of conviences for it. Basically, people are free to mod to their hearts content, but if any changes prior to 1.0 break that mod for them or anyone else, then tough luck.

The problem isn't the sharing of the Lua code, its the dev team having to work around the contributions of non dev members when building the 1.0 version. So what I meant was people wouldn't be contributing to source, where source is 1.0 Lua code.

Edit:
Am I correct in that what we are basically getting in an engine is a Lua compiler based almost entirely on a previous C++ Compiler. The main loop will be in C++ and will be inaccessible, but we will have an API so we can mod in LUA. So its safe to release said compiler as long as we can't look in the box, and we can code, compile and run.

1.0 is this and a bunch of LUA script that works with the original vision. But for the adventurous types, you don't technically need a completed Lua script. You just need the API to play with.

Am I way wrong?
[Edited] Beta will be moddable.

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:25 pm
by Hyperion
We can't release any runnable LT code without essentially releasing the whole game, which is... what 1.0 release is for. When the 1.0 version of the game is done :p And as Cornflakes pointed out, if we did that even for only a small portion of people, we couldn't prevent people from sharing the game.

Again, to be extremely clear: there will be no code released to the public before 1.0 is released. Not to backers or anybody else. This is not going to change.
Thats understandable, but that makes me curious just what the Closed Beta will be like, if youre going to be shipping out the whole game as 1.0... Presumably there would be a time frame where beta is released to the KS backers before it goes on sale, right?

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:29 pm
by LindseyReid
Hyperion wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:25 pm
We can't release any runnable LT code without essentially releasing the whole game, which is... what 1.0 release is for. When the 1.0 version of the game is done :p And as Cornflakes pointed out, if we did that even for only a small portion of people, we couldn't prevent people from sharing the game.

Again, to be extremely clear: there will be no code released to the public before 1.0 is released. Not to backers or anybody else. This is not going to change.
Thats understandable, but that makes me curious just what the Closed Beta will be like, if youre going to be shipping out the whole game as 1.0... Presumably there would be a time frame where beta is released to the KS backers before it goes on sale, right?
[Edited] Beta will be moddable.

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:31 pm
by Talvieno
LindseyReid wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:29 pm
Yes, good point. I believe we are planning on doing a closed beta. It won't be in moddable form, however.
...are you sure? Josh always told me differently.

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:34 pm
by Cornflakes_91
LindseyReid wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:29 pm
It won't be in moddable form, however.
im wondering how you want to do that when the majority of the actual gameplay is in LUA....

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:35 pm
by LindseyReid
Talvieno wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:31 pm
...are you sure? Josh always told me differently.
Sorry guys, miscommunication. Tal is always right :p Beta will be moddable, but we will not integrate user mods into 1.0. MyNameWuzTaken & Cornflakes, please forgive me X0

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 pm
by MyNameWuzTaken
LindseyReid wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:35 pm
Talvieno wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:31 pm
...are you sure? Josh always told me differently.
Sorry guys, miscommunication. Tal is always right :p Beta will be moddable, but we will not integrate user mods into 1.0. MyNameWuzTaken & Cornflakes, please forgive me X0
Integrating user mods into LT 2.0 Confirmed!

Haha sorry if I caused a problem Lindsey.

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:58 pm
by LindseyReid
MyNameWuzTaken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 pm
LindseyReid wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:35 pm
Talvieno wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:31 pm
...are you sure? Josh always told me differently.
Sorry guys, miscommunication. Tal is always right :p Beta will be moddable, but we will not integrate user mods into 1.0. MyNameWuzTaken & Cornflakes, please forgive me X0
Integrating user mods into LT 2.0 Confirmed!

Haha sorry if I caused a problem Lindsey.
You did not. Thank you for being chill about my slip-up XD

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:33 am
by Distant
Well, here's my Video Review, for those who enjoy it!

https://youtu.be/R34lKOTVx0g

Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:49 am
by Victor Tombs
I've just returned from a few days away from my reclusive surroundings to find you had posted a dev log, Josh. By far my favourite part of this post was "Side-Soliloquy: Why So Much Concern for Moddability?" The hidden part was a joy to read! :D

Thanks for some inspiring stuff! :D :thumbup: :angel: