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Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

#17
Fantastic post, Josh.

For what it's worth, I think your high level cost/benefit analysis regarding making LT moddable is sound. This isn't a sunk-cost fallacy; this is a responsible assessment of whether modding is right for this game. You concluded "yes." I believe that conclusion is the correct one, and I specifically believe it for exactly the reasons you gave.

If proceduralism is what will make a game of LT feel like a living world, moddability is what will enable LT to be a living game. It's a good fit.

One other thing:

JoshParnell wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:45 pm
All the 'bigger picture' elements that dictate when, where, and how a particular function runs are specified in the data section ... Hence, much of the need for a modder to 'worry about' the internal mechanisms used to make LT performant (you know, the ones I talk about in pretty much every devlog ever?) is alleviated. Granted, they still exist and may still be interacted with at the code level, but for the majority of gameplay functionality, doing so should be unnecessary.

Noted, and very much appreciated. This, and a reasonable data definition grammar, are about as far as you can go technically to simplify modding LT.

With that, and a basic "Modding LT" reference guide, the rest is up to us. Expecting someone who wants to mod LT to make the effort to learn Lua and the LT-specific constructs -- what they are, what they mean, and how to use them -- is entirely reasonable.

This is going to be fun. :)
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Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

#18
LindseyReid wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:54 pm
Miklos wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:20 pm
Talvieno wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:05 pm

Nope. There aren't any plans for this to happen. :P
But using GitHub as mod backend would be very cool, easy to work together on mods or fork mods etc.

Or just use SpaceDock
You are correct that the Lua will be released, and the engine and C++ will be secret; however, +1 to Tal's response: only Procedural Reality developers (ie me, Adam, and Josh) will contribute to 1.0 release code.

The community can use whatever tools y'all want for collaborating on mods with each other. ^^
Why Tal?! Why couldn't you have just been WRONG about this?!

Also, I notice you did not specify that we couldn't have early access that would allow us to start creating things that WON'T be included in the 1.0 release... Loophole...

Release version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?

Though from the way it has been described, I guess there won't be a large Lua code base to play around with except for a brief period of time when all the gameplay is being generated at light speed.

All of this is futile. I don't have the honor of being a backer.

Now I feel sad
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Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

#20
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:49 pm
MyNameWuzTaken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 am
Release version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?
... how would you prevent people from sharing code..?
if i can write code that runs in it, i can share that code
I just meant not adding it to the initial codebase. There isn't really a way from preventing people sharing code, but you don't have to incorporate changes into the 1.0 source, or make any kind of conviences for it. Basically, people are free to mod to their hearts content, but if any changes prior to 1.0 break that mod for them or anyone else, then tough luck.

The problem isn't the sharing of the Lua code, its the dev team having to work around the contributions of non dev members when building the 1.0 version. So what I meant was people wouldn't be contributing to source, where source is 1.0 Lua code.

Edit:
Am I correct in that what we are basically getting in an engine is a Lua compiler based almost entirely on a previous C++ Compiler. The main loop will be in C++ and will be inaccessible, but we will have an API so we can mod in LUA. So its safe to release said compiler as long as we can't look in the box, and we can code, compile and run.

1.0 is this and a bunch of LUA script that works with the original vision. But for the adventurous types, you don't technically need a completed Lua script. You just need the API to play with.

Am I way wrong?
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Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

#21
Dwamies wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:21 pm
Lovely log Josh! Glad everything is looking up.

Where's Adam been? I really enjoyed his logs..
Still working hard daily in the Procedural Reality offices, just not posting regularly ^^

MyNameWuzTaken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:10 pm
Cornflakes_91 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:49 pm
MyNameWuzTaken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:47 am
Release version 0.9 and let people start sandboxing it, but not making changes beyond their own machine?
... how would you prevent people from sharing code..?
if i can write code that runs in it, i can share that code
I just meant not adding it to the initial codebase. There isn't really a way from preventing people sharing code, but you don't have to incorporate changes into the 1.0 source, or make any kind of conviences for it. Basically, people are free to mod to their hearts content, but if any changes prior to 1.0 break that mod for them or anyone else, then tough luck.

The problem isn't the sharing of the Lua code, its the dev team having to work around the contributions of non dev members when building the 1.0 version. So what I meant was people wouldn't be contributing to source, where source is 1.0 Lua code.

Edit:
Am I correct in that what we are basically getting in an engine is a Lua compiler based almost entirely on a previous C++ Compiler. The main loop will be in C++ and will be inaccessible, but we will have an API so we can mod in LUA. So its safe to release said compiler as long as we can't look in the box, and we can code, compile and run.

1.0 is this and a bunch of LUA script that works with the original vision. But for the adventurous types, you don't technically need a completed Lua script. You just need the API to play with.

Am I way wrong?
[Edited] Beta will be moddable.
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"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
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Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

#22
We can't release any runnable LT code without essentially releasing the whole game, which is... what 1.0 release is for. When the 1.0 version of the game is done :p And as Cornflakes pointed out, if we did that even for only a small portion of people, we couldn't prevent people from sharing the game.

Again, to be extremely clear: there will be no code released to the public before 1.0 is released. Not to backers or anybody else. This is not going to change.
Thats understandable, but that makes me curious just what the Closed Beta will be like, if youre going to be shipping out the whole game as 1.0... Presumably there would be a time frame where beta is released to the KS backers before it goes on sale, right?
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Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

#23
Hyperion wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:25 pm
We can't release any runnable LT code without essentially releasing the whole game, which is... what 1.0 release is for. When the 1.0 version of the game is done :p And as Cornflakes pointed out, if we did that even for only a small portion of people, we couldn't prevent people from sharing the game.

Again, to be extremely clear: there will be no code released to the public before 1.0 is released. Not to backers or anybody else. This is not going to change.
Thats understandable, but that makes me curious just what the Closed Beta will be like, if youre going to be shipping out the whole game as 1.0... Presumably there would be a time frame where beta is released to the KS backers before it goes on sale, right?
[Edited] Beta will be moddable.
Blog | Twitter | Pinterest

"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
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Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

#26
Talvieno wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:31 pm
...are you sure? Josh always told me differently.
Sorry guys, miscommunication. Tal is always right :p Beta will be moddable, but we will not integrate user mods into 1.0. MyNameWuzTaken & Cornflakes, please forgive me X0
Blog | Twitter | Pinterest

"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim
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Re: [Josh] Monday, December 4, 2017

#28
MyNameWuzTaken wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:54 pm
LindseyReid wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:35 pm
Talvieno wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:31 pm
...are you sure? Josh always told me differently.
Sorry guys, miscommunication. Tal is always right :p Beta will be moddable, but we will not integrate user mods into 1.0. MyNameWuzTaken & Cornflakes, please forgive me X0
Integrating user mods into LT 2.0 Confirmed!

Haha sorry if I caused a problem Lindsey.
You did not. Thank you for being chill about my slip-up XD
Blog | Twitter | Pinterest

"You’ve got to work on something dangerous. You have to work on something that makes you uncertain. Something that makes you doubt yourself... because it stimulates you to do things you haven’t done before. The whole thing is if you know where you’re going, you’ve gone, as the poet says. And that’s death."
- Stephen Sondheim

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